The GAA Thread

[whyohwhy]

Off the top of my head:

Joyce,
Cavanagh,
Gooch,
McConville
Corkery (retired from intercounty, i know)
Canavan (Ditto, but not an all-star last year)
Fitzgerald (Ditto)
Geraghty,
Donnelan,
Giles (always thought he never got the credit he deserved, he was class)

I'll get thinking on others

[bandage]

whyohwhy said:

Off the top of my head:

Joyce,
Cavanagh,
Gooch,
McConville
Corkery (retired from intercounty, i know)
Canavan (Ditto, but not an all-star last year)
Fitzgerald (Ditto)
Geraghty,
Donnelan,
Giles (always thought he never got the credit he deserved, he was class)

I'll get thinking on others

Forde would not in any way look out of place in that company. In fact some of those mentioned should feel honoured to be mentioned in the same breath as him.

[whyohwhy]

bandage said:

whyohwhy said:

Off the top of my head:

Joyce,
Cavanagh,
Gooch,
McConville
Corkery (retired from intercounty, i know)
Canavan (Ditto, but not an all-star last year)
Fitzgerald (Ditto)
Geraghty,
Donnelan,
Giles (always thought he never got the credit he deserved, he was class)

I'll get thinking on others

Forde would not in any way look out of place in that company. In fact some of those mentioned should feel honoured to be mentioned in the same breath as him.

Fair point. But I dont know if they would be honoured to mentioned in the same breath as him, I feel he should be honoured to mentioned in the same breath as them.

On reflection, I will keep my opinions open on Forde for this season and will revert back when Mattieford are knocked out of the championship, I shall keep a keener eye on him. However at present I will stick to my initial assessment that he is a good player, a very good player, but not a great player.

I may even get a chance this season to see him in close up action, if Wexford get to meet Kerry in Croker. Now thats kerry Arrogance

[steamboatsam]

whyohwhy said:

admin said:

On the Mattieford question I have to say I think the lad is great. I've seen him live probably 4 or 5 times at this stage (all in the Championsip) and he's looked a class act on every occasion. I'm not sure what you want him to do before you will consider him great. Everyone knows he's playing for a team that aren't considered great themselves and therefore his opportunities against the top counties will be limited. That's the nature of gaelic games though. He plays for his club and his county and excels for both.

It's also a bit harsh to dismiss the relevance of MOTM awards in the context of evaluating the merits of an individual player. Whyohwhy asked for evidence of Forde doing it against the top counties and a MOTM award against Tyrone is evidence of that. The points about a team game and parish sports are all very relevant but only if you're willing to accept the achievements of Forde when representing his parish. You said "Being the only player from his club... matters fuck all." This hardly tallies with your later arguments for dismissing MOTM awards.

Anyway I'm not from Wexford but I've seen them play a number of times due to their participation in various double-headers with Dublin/Westmeath involvement and because they played Louth in Parnell Park a few years back. I've never failed to be impressed by Forde. Sometimes he is quieter than others but he has always had the gift of standing up his marker and going to either foot to knock one over. This is not common in the GAA these days - in fact guys are lauded for being able to solo with one foot and kick with the other. Kicking points comfortably from 40 yards with either foot is a different matter.

My dismissing of MOTM awards has fuck all to do with Mattie Ford. It was a personal rant.

As for being the only player from his club, I stated that, as it hardly has anything to do with a player being great.

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

Kudos to Golf here, but I feel the most I can give Mattie will be 'Best player never to win an All-Ireland'. I'd like to see him on the big stage regularly and get the credit and rewards he deserves. But it aint going to happen.

That's a load of cock. Players don't win medals, teams do. As you have stated already the GAA is all about the team. One player on his own cannot win a "substantial" medal, so you're dismissing claims of Forde's greatness purely because he's not in a team thats capable of winning a "substantial" medal (i presume you mean the All Ireland considering you've written off Leinster medals, County medals, Interprovincial medals, International medals). Absolute bullshit.

[whyohwhy]

steamboatsam said:

whyohwhy said:

My dismissing of MOTM awards has fuck all to do with Mattie Ford. It was a personal rant.

As for being the only player from his club, I stated that, as it hardly has anything to do with a player being great.

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

Kudos to Golf here, but I feel the most I can give Mattie will be 'Best player never to win an All-Ireland'. I'd like to see him on the big stage regularly and get the credit and rewards he deserves. But it aint going to happen.

That's a load of cock. Players don't win medals, teams do. As you have stated already the GAA is all about the team. One player on his own cannot win a "substantial" medal, so you're dismissing claims of Forde's greatness purely because he's not in a team thats capable of winning a "substantial" medal (i presume you mean the All Ireland considering you've written off Leinster medals, County medals, Interprovincial medals, International medals). Absolute bullshit.

I dismiss the Leinster championship as it is not competitive enough, I have stated before that Ulster is the only truely competitive provincial championship. I dismiss Leinster as Westmeath were able to win it 2 years ago and quickly disappeared.

I dont know a whole lot about the Mattieford county championship, but I dont believe that the number of county medals is any factor in assessing greatness (Maurice Fitz has 1, does that mean he's not great?).

The Railway cup is a waste of players time.

The International rules is, in my opinion, not a factor in assessing a players greatness.

And yes, I do believe an All-ireland medal is an important factor in assessing greatness. It is the pinnacle of any players career.

If you had bothered to read my last post, you would have seen that I said I will defer judgement on Mattie Forde until he perhaps gets the chance to play further on in the business end of the championship

Furthermore, Steam, if you want to join a debate, dont be so abusive of other peoples opinions. This was quite a lively and informed debate until you lumped in with abusive and foul language. Grow up and respect peoples opinions. If you dont like what I say, smite me again, thats what its there for.

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player.

I know you're a rugby man as well, whyohwhy, and would you agree that for a rugby player the corresponding achievement of winning an All-Ireland medal would be winning a Triple Crown?

Cos if so, Mike Gibson would not be classed a great player. Nor would Willie-John. Or Keith Wood.

You've said previously that performances in big games are what count, and I'd agree with that, but it's possible for an individual to perform brilliantly in a big game and his team still to be beaten. Gibson did it. So did Wood.

Or to pick a more recent example, I think O'Driscoll's 3 tries in Paris contributed to him being considered a great player. But if Humphries had missed the last kick, we'd have lost; but how could you justify thinking less of O'Driscoll as a result?

Therefore I'd argue that in a team sport medals can't be seen as definitive proof that an individual isn't great. They can be indicative, but not proof.

[therock67]

For example Henrik Larsson is a great player - and was great before he won the Champions League

[bandage]

Think I'll end my contribution to the Mattie debate as myself, rock and humbug have all answered whyohwhy's arguments and the goalposts keep being shifted (Forde's still lofting the points over nonetheless!). Finally:

You asked when has he done it against a Northern team? I said Derry in the 2004 qualifiers and Tyrone in the 2002 qualifiers (live on TV with a MOTM award in the latter).

You said MOTM and other personal awards are of no significance, it's all about the parish. I said if that's the case then he's led Kilanerin to numerous county championships (including scoring 14 points against last year's champions Horeswood in the 2004 final, coincidentally performing exceptionally for the parish in the same year he was named GPA Player of the Year and received Wexford's first ever All Star) - then you stated that this doesn't matter because Maurice Fitz only has one county medal.

You said scoring 2-10 in the league is irrelevant. I said the 2-10 was in the championship against Offaly.

You said it's not uncommon for intercounty players to be able to score with both feet and from acute angles. I would say he's possibly the only player in the country capable of doing this on a regular basis and anybody who was in Croke Park on Sunday can confirm that he did this even though 'you didn't see it but will take my word for it'.

You stated the interpros are a waste of time. I would say for many years they were but there has been an injection of interest in the last couple of years with players eager to play due to foreign trips being on offer every second year. Last year's final between Leinster and Ulster under the lights in Parnell Park was a smashing match - Leinster winning in extra time - in a game where Forde kicked two points from distance with his left foot in the second half. There was proper hitting in this game.

I agree the International Rules is not a great indicator of a player's greatness - see how the likes of Gooch can't be accomodated in it - however, it is still an honour to be selected which Forde has been for the last 2 years and has scored goals and overs at home and abroad. This signifies some semblance of quality surely.

How you continue to protest about this just because you don't rate the Leinster championship is beyond me. Especially when you've been presented with irrefutable evidence of him scoring regularly and almost at will on every stage he has performed on - county championship, Leinster championship, All Ireland qualifier series, inter-provincial championship, international rules series.

Sport is littered with examples of people who have played with lesser known teams due to their place of birth - this does not mean they are not great. I mentioned Best - you said he'd achieved his greatness with ManU. I say Forde may not have an All Ireland medal but he has achieved greatness through his personal scoring feats, personal awards and as the rock said 'excelling always for club and county' and being a large part in Wexford's journey from being absolute also rans to challenging for provincial honours.

Finally I'm not going to personally slate any of the talented players you mentioned in response to my query on who you'd class as great but there are some up there who are not near the class of Forde.

Sorry for the further pleonasm but short of Wexford entering the Ulster championship every year I'm not sure how you will be convinced of Forde's prowess. Anyway, sit back, relax and enjoy the Forde Fiesta this summer.

[steamboatsam]

whyohwhy said:

steamboatsam said:

That's a load of cock. Players don't win medals, teams do. As you have stated already the GAA is all about the team. One player on his own cannot win a "substantial" medal, so you're dismissing claims of Forde's greatness purely because he's not in a team thats capable of winning a "substantial" medal (i presume you mean the All Ireland considering you've written off Leinster medals, County medals, Interprovincial medals, International medals). Absolute bullshit.

I dismiss the Leinster championship as it is not competitive enough, I have stated before that Ulster is the only truely competitive provincial championship. I dismiss Leinster as Westmeath were able to win it 2 years ago and quickly disappeared.

I dont know a whole lot about the Mattieford county championship, but I dont believe that the number of county medals is any factor in assessing greatness (Maurice Fitz has 1, does that mean he's not great?).

The Railway cup is a waste of players time.

The International rules is, in my opinion, not a factor in assessing a players greatness.

And yes, I do believe an All-ireland medal is an important factor in assessing greatness. It is the pinnacle of any players career.

If you had bothered to read my last post, you would have seen that I said I will defer judgement on Mattie Forde until he perhaps gets the chance to play further on in the business end of the championship

Furthermore, Steam, if you want to join a debate, dont be so abusive of other peoples opinions. This was quite a lively and informed debate until you lumped in with abusive and foul language. Grow up and respect peoples opinions. If you dont like what I say, smite me again, thats what its there for.

There have been 4 different winners of the leinster championship over the past 5 years - how can you say that's not competitive? The fact that a leinster team hasn't won an all ireland since 99 has been because leinster football as a whole has been inferior to ulster football, but you can't dismiss it as being uncompetitive.

Regarding county medals, i believe it was yourself (correct me if i'm wrong) who said the gaa is all about the parish ie club, so you're contradicting yourself by stating that club medals are irrelevant, particularly when Forde, who has won many, is his club's sole representative on the Wexford team. The fact that Wexford is a weak team playing in a weak province (as you alluded to) and still no further Kilanerin players are considered good enough for county level is further proof of his achievements in helping that club to county titles.

Regarding Maurice Fitz with his one club medal, of course that doesn't tarnish his greatness as you can't judge or write off a player based on one single barometer - as you have done with Forde (lack off All-Ireland success)

The fact that you are now deferring judgement on Forde after totally dismissing claims of greatness over the past couple of days may well justify my initial comment in the previous post (I won't repeat it for fear of offending you with more foul and abusive language).

As an aside, if you had bothered to read your won post you would have seen that you followed up your statement about deferring judgment on Forde with one stating that you were sticking to your original opinion that he was very good, but not great.

Although it may not carry the prestige it once did, it is still an honour for any GAA player to represent his province as is playing for ones country, no matter what the sport.

What factors do you consider relevant in assessing a players greatness, as so far you only seem to have one??

[whyohwhy]

steamboatsam said:

whyohwhy said:

I dismiss the Leinster championship as it is not competitive enough, I have stated before that Ulster is the only truely competitive provincial championship. I dismiss Leinster as Westmeath were able to win it 2 years ago and quickly disappeared.

I dont know a whole lot about the Mattieford county championship, but I dont believe that the number of county medals is any factor in assessing greatness (Maurice Fitz has 1, does that mean he's not great?).

The Railway cup is a waste of players time.

The International rules is, in my opinion, not a factor in assessing a players greatness.

And yes, I do believe an All-ireland medal is an important factor in assessing greatness. It is the pinnacle of any players career.

If you had bothered to read my last post, you would have seen that I said I will defer judgement on Mattie Forde until he perhaps gets the chance to play further on in the business end of the championship

Furthermore, Steam, if you want to join a debate, dont be so abusive of other peoples opinions. This was quite a lively and informed debate until you lumped in with abusive and foul language. Grow up and respect peoples opinions. If you dont like what I say, smite me again, thats what its there for.

There have been 4 different winners of the leinster championship over the past 5 years - how can you say that's not competitive? The fact that a leinster team hasn't won an all ireland since 99 has been because leinster football as a whole has been inferior to ulster football, but you can't dismiss it as being uncompetitive.

Regarding county medals, i believe it was yourself (correct me if i'm wrong) who said the gaa is all about the parish ie club, so you're contradicting yourself by stating that club medals are irrelevant, particularly when Forde, who has won many, is his club's sole representative on the Wexford team. The fact that Wexford is a weak team playing in a weak province (as you alluded to) and still no further Kilanerin players are considered good enough for county level is further proof of his achievements in helping that club to county titles.

Regarding Maurice Fitz with his one club medal, of course that doesn't tarnish his greatness as you can't judge or write off a player based on one single barometer - as you have done with Forde (lack off All-Ireland success)

The fact that you are now deferring judgement on Forde after totally dismissing claims of greatness over the past couple of days may well justify my initial comment in the previous post (I won't repeat it for fear of offending you with more foul and abusive language).

As an aside, if you had bothered to read your won post you would have seen that you followed up your statement about deferring judgment on Forde with one stating that you were sticking to your original opinion that he was very good, but not great.

Although it may not carry the prestige it once did, it is still an honour for any GAA player to represent his province as is playing for ones country, no matter what the sport.

What factors do you consider relevant in assessing a players greatness, as so far you only seem to have one??

I said I will defer judgement, but at the moment am sticking to my opinion that he is a good player, I apologise if I didnt specificially state 'at the moment', I thought it was clear when I stated i was deferring judgement. I decided to defer judgement based on bandages arguments (well put arguments), this is what arguments are all about, Steams.

My arguments regarding the parish were related to the MOTM awards, which was a personal rant, as I stated. I dont believe MOTM awards was a criteria for greatness.

I dont believe Leinster is a competitive province due mainly to the fact that Westmeath have won a provincial title, as has been shown lately they are poor. The 'powers' in Leinster have waned; Meath, who are now terrible; Dublin, now on the way back from mediocrity under Tommy Lyons; Laois, who were unbelievably poor against Kerry in the league semi-final.

FYI, I believe the Munster championship is the worst provincial championship, competitively by far.

As for assessing greatness, I have repeatedly stated, repeatedly stated, that it is my own opinion that Mattie Forde is not a great player. So my criteria is my own opinion, based on years of watching football.

[whyohwhy]

iamthelaw said:

whyohwhy said:

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player.

I know you're a rugby man as well, whyohwhy, and would you agree that for a rugby player the corresponding achievement of winning an All-Ireland medal would be winning a Triple Crown?

Cos if so, Mike Gibson would not be classed a great player. Nor would Willie-John. Or Keith Wood.

You've said previously that performances in big games are what count, and I'd agree with that, but it's possible for an individual to perform brilliantly in a big game and his team still to be beaten. Gibson did it. So did Wood.

Or to pick a more recent example, I think O'Driscoll's 3 tries in Paris contributed to him being considered a great player. But if Humphries had missed the last kick, we'd have lost; but how could you justify thinking less of O'Driscoll as a result?

Therefore I'd argue that in a team sport medals can't be seen as definitive proof that an individual isn't great. They can be indicative, but not proof.

Different sport, different criteria.

(But i'm sure the 3 players above mentioned would be considered great partly because of their roles with various Lions tours?)

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

As for assessing greatness, I have repeatedly stated, repeatedly stated, that it is my own opinion that Mattie Forde is not a great player. So my criteria is my own opinion, based on years of watching football.

You did state that he would not be a great player iyo until he won a "substantial medal" ie iyo an Ulster or All-Ireland medal.

I haven't seen enough of Mattie to have an opinion as to his greatness or goodness, but I disagree with this criterion.

[whyohwhy]

bandage said:

Think I'll end my contribution to the Mattie debate as myself, rock and humbug have all answered whyohwhy's arguments and the goalposts keep being shifted (Forde's still lofting the points over nonetheless!). Finally:

You asked when has he done it against a Northern team? I said Derry in the 2004 qualifiers and Tyrone in the 2002 qualifiers (live on TV with a MOTM award in the latter).

You said MOTM and other personal awards are of no significance, it's all about the parish. I said if that's the case then he's led Kilanerin to numerous county championships (including scoring 14 points against last year's champions Horeswood in the 2004 final, coincidentally performing exceptionally for the parish in the same year he was named GPA Player of the Year and received Wexford's first ever All Star) - then you stated that this doesn't matter because Maurice Fitz only has one county medal.

You said scoring 2-10 in the league is irrelevant. I said the 2-10 was in the championship against Offaly.

You said it's not uncommon for intercounty players to be able to score with both feet and from acute angles. I would say he's possibly the only player in the country capable of doing this on a regular basis and anybody who was in Croke Park on Sunday can confirm that he did this even though 'you didn't see it but will take my word for it'.

You stated the interpros are a waste of time. I would say for many years they were but there has been an injection of interest in the last couple of years with players eager to play due to foreign trips being on offer every second year. Last year's final between Leinster and Ulster under the lights in Parnell Park was a smashing match - Leinster winning in extra time - in a game where Forde kicked two points from distance with his left foot in the second half. There was proper hitting in this game.

I agree the International Rules is not a great indicator of a player's greatness - see how the likes of Gooch can't be accomodated in it - however, it is still an honour to be selected which Forde has been for the last 2 years and has scored goals and overs at home and abroad. This signifies some semblance of quality surely.

How you continue to protest about this just because you don't rate the Leinster championship is beyond me. Especially when you've been presented with irrefutable evidence of him scoring regularly and almost at will on every stage he has performed on - county championship, Leinster championship, All Ireland qualifier series, inter-provincial championship, international rules series.

Sport is littered with examples of people who have played with lesser known teams due to their place of birth - this does not mean they are not great. I mentioned Best - you said he'd achieved his greatness with ManU. I say Forde may not have an All Ireland medal but he has achieved greatness through his personal scoring feats, personal awards and as the rock said 'excelling always for club and county' and being a large part in Wexford's journey from being absolute also rans to challenging for provincial honours.

Finally I'm not going to personally slate any of the talented players you mentioned in response to my query on who you'd class as great but there are some up there who are not near the class of Forde.

Sorry for the further pleonasm but short of Wexford entering the Ulster championship every year I'm not sure how you will be convinced of Forde's prowess. Anyway, sit back, relax and enjoy the Forde Fiesta this summer.

Very well put and I have decided to defer judgement on Mattie Forde.

But I am sticking to my points: re Ulster only competitive province. Railway cup pile of shite, MOTM awards - pointless (and it was a personal rant, nothing to do with Mattie per se.)

I dont believe you could personally slate (footballwise) any of the great players i mentioned.

[whyohwhy]

iamthelaw said:

whyohwhy said:

As for assessing greatness, I have repeatedly stated, repeatedly stated, that it is my own opinion that Mattie Forde is not a great player. So my criteria is my own opinion, based on years of watching football.

You did state that he would not be a great player iyo until he won a "substantial medal" ie iyo an Ulster or All-Ireland medal.

I haven't seen enough of Mattie to have an opinion as to his greatness or goodness, but I disagree with this criterion.

Fine, he wont be a great player until he wins an All-Ireland

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

Different sport, different criteria.

I don't see why. If the criterion of team success determining individual greatness was applicable in one team sport, why would it not be applicable in the other.

whyohwhy said:

(But i'm sure the 3 players above mentioned would be considered great partly because of their roles with various Lions tours?)

Your criterion was team success. If you are arguing that Lions success counts in this context, then Keith Wood's greatness (since he had no success with Ireland) rests on Guscott's drop-goal in South Africa. And Dawson's dummy. I'd argue that Wood would still be a great player if the Lions had lost that series (thereby condemning him to a career without team success). Because the criterion isn't valid.

[whyohwhy]

iamthelaw said:

whyohwhy said:

Different sport, different criteria.

I don't see why. If the criterion of team success determining individual greatness was applicable in one team sport, why would it not be applicable in the other.

whyohwhy said:

(But i'm sure the 3 players above mentioned would be considered great partly because of their roles with various Lions tours?)

Your criterion was team success. If you are arguing that Lions success counts in this context, then Keith Wood's greatness (since he had no success with Ireland) rests on Guscott's drop-goal in South Africa. And Dawson's dummy. I'd argue that Wood would still be a great player if the Lions had lost that series (thereby condemning him to a career without team success). Because the criterion isn't valid.

I'm not getting into a rugby player criteria for greatness arguement. The mattie Forde one is tough enough

it's in the wrong thread!

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

I'm not getting into a rugby player criteria for greatness arguement. The mattie Forde one is tough enough

Well I stick by my argument that if it's valid for one it should be valid for the other, but fair enough.

Do All-Ireland U-21 medals count? Or is that a different Corkery from the Cork one in your list of great players?

[whyohwhy]

iamthelaw said:

whyohwhy said:

I'm not getting into a rugby player criteria for greatness arguement. The mattie Forde one is tough enough

Well I stick by my argument that if it's valid for one it should be valid for the other, but fair enough.

Do All-Ireland U-21 medals count? Or is that a different Corkery from the Cork one in your list of great players?

No its not (but he does have a club All-Ireland with Nemo).........[awaits abuse]

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

.........[awaits abuse]

No, thought I had you there, but you haven't contradicted yourself as far as I can see. Good recovery.

[bandage]

Keeping schtum on the 'great' Mattie Forde for now!

Further Wexican hurling news and to answer tommymoore's earlier query, Galway beat Wexford 0-25 to 1-21 last weekend in a typically high scoring challenge game - don't know anything about the game though. This was preceded by a challenge game the previous Thursday where we beat Waterford 4-24 to 5-15! Despite all the rumours of unrest in the camp and players dropping off the panel these are decent results. The bad news is the legendary Darragh Ryan is definitely out for the Offaly game, probably for the whole championship and possibly for good. I'm not writing this man's epitaph because he keeps coming back from knee surgery but he would be sorely missed. The encouraging thing is the last time the footballers took the limelight off the hurlers by beating Kildare in 2004 the hurlers responded by beating Kilkenny. I remain confident there will be a double Biff bashing on consecutive weekends to take us to two Leinster finals.

Our U-21s beat Laois 0-17 to 1-12 last night in the Leinster QF. Apparently very lucky to win and knocked over 3 or 4 points in the last few minutes to sneak it. At least it restores some pride after the minor's capitulation to Carlow.

[steamboatsam]

whyohwhy said:

steamboatsam said:

There have been 4 different winners of the leinster championship over the past 5 years - how can you say that's not competitive? The fact that a leinster team hasn't won an all ireland since 99 has been because leinster football as a whole has been inferior to ulster football, but you can't dismiss it as being uncompetitive.

Regarding county medals, i believe it was yourself (correct me if i'm wrong) who said the gaa is all about the parish ie club, so you're contradicting yourself by stating that club medals are irrelevant, particularly when Forde, who has won many, is his club's sole representative on the Wexford team. The fact that Wexford is a weak team playing in a weak province (as you alluded to) and still no further Kilanerin players are considered good enough for county level is further proof of his achievements in helping that club to county titles.

Regarding Maurice Fitz with his one club medal, of course that doesn't tarnish his greatness as you can't judge or write off a player based on one single barometer - as you have done with Forde (lack off All-Ireland success)

The fact that you are now deferring judgement on Forde after totally dismissing claims of greatness over the past couple of days may well justify my initial comment in the previous post (I won't repeat it for fear of offending you with more foul and abusive language).

As an aside, if you had bothered to read your won post you would have seen that you followed up your statement about deferring judgment on Forde with one stating that you were sticking to your original opinion that he was very good, but not great.

Although it may not carry the prestige it once did, it is still an honour for any GAA player to represent his province as is playing for ones country, no matter what the sport.

What factors do you consider relevant in assessing a players greatness, as so far you only seem to have one??

I said I will defer judgement, but at the moment am sticking to my opinion that he is a good player, I apologise if I didnt specificially state 'at the moment', I thought it was clear when I stated i was deferring judgement. I decided to defer judgement based on bandages arguments (well put arguments), this is what arguments are all about, Steams.

My arguments regarding the parish were related to the MOTM awards, which was a personal rant, as I stated. I dont believe MOTM awards was a criteria for greatness.

I dont believe Leinster is a competitive province due mainly to the fact that Westmeath have won a provincial title, as has been shown lately they are poor. The 'powers' in Leinster have waned; Meath, who are now terrible; Dublin, now on the way back from mediocrity under Tommy Lyons; Laois, who were unbelievably poor against Kerry in the league semi-final.

FYI, I believe the Munster championship is the worst provincial championship, competitively by far.

As for assessing greatness, I have repeatedly stated, repeatedly stated, that it is my own opinion that Mattie Forde is not a great player. So my criteria is my own opinion, based on years of watching football.

Thank you for the clarification of your up to the minute opinion on Mattie Forde.

Bandage does indeed make his arguments well; and he's a lovely guy too.

Competitive does not relate to the standard of teams, it relates to a number of teams of similar standard competing, whereby any one of said teams can realistically triumph. Leinster is competitive and has been for the last number of years. In this sense, considering their footballing history, it would be a a great achievement for Wexford to win a Leinster title and for Mattie to be instrumental in achieving it. Realistically a Leinster title is the most Mattie and Wexford can aspire to this year, but i don't think that should in any way detracts from his greatness - after all football is a team game and there is only so much one player can do.

All the great players you mentioned were fortunate enough to play for very good teams. One wonders how they have fared in a team like Wexford and if (as is most likely) they excelled, would their greatness be questioned? If so then it could be assumed that luck plays a part in greatness.

In my opinion, my own opinion, the greatness or otherwise of any player in any sport must be judged on a wide range of criteria - facts about their career and achievements to date. I believe personal opinion on a given player only comes into the equation when comparing one great (or any standard of) player with another. ie Fitzgerald is a great player (fact - based on obvious evidence), but is he as great as Canavan - that's where the argument should begin.

[whyohwhy]

steamboatsam said:

whyohwhy said:

I said I will defer judgement, but at the moment am sticking to my opinion that he is a good player, I apologise if I didnt specificially state 'at the moment', I thought it was clear when I stated i was deferring judgement. I decided to defer judgement based on bandages arguments (well put arguments), this is what arguments are all about, Steams.

My arguments regarding the parish were related to the MOTM awards, which was a personal rant, as I stated. I dont believe MOTM awards was a criteria for greatness.

I dont believe Leinster is a competitive province due mainly to the fact that Westmeath have won a provincial title, as has been shown lately they are poor. The 'powers' in Leinster have waned; Meath, who are now terrible; Dublin, now on the way back from mediocrity under Tommy Lyons; Laois, who were unbelievably poor against Kerry in the league semi-final.

FYI, I believe the Munster championship is the worst provincial championship, competitively by far.

As for assessing greatness, I have repeatedly stated, repeatedly stated, that it is my own opinion that Mattie Forde is not a great player. So my criteria is my own opinion, based on years of watching football.

Thank you for the clarification of your up to the minute opinion on Mattie Forde.

Bandage does indeed make his arguments well; and he's a lovely guy too.

Competitive does not relate to the standard of teams, it relates to a number of teams of similar standard competing, whereby any one of said teams can realistically triumph. Leinster is competitive and has been for the last number of years. In this sense, considering their footballing history, it would be a a great achievement for Wexford to win a Leinster title and for Mattie to be instrumental in achieving it. Realistically a Leinster title is the most Mattie and Wexford can aspire to this year, but i don't think that should in any way detracts from his greatness - after all football is a team game and there is only so much one player can do.

All the great players you mentioned were fortunate enough to play for very good teams. One wonders how they have fared in a team like Wexford and if (as is most likely) they excelled, would their greatness be questioned? If so then it could be assumed that luck plays a part in greatness.

In my opinion, my own opinion, the greatness or otherwise of any player in any sport must be judged on a wide range of criteria - facts about their career and achievements to date. I believe personal opinion on a given player only comes into the equation when comparing one great (or any standard of) player with another. ie Fitzgerald is a great player (fact - based on obvious evidence), but is he as great as Canavan - that's where the argument should begin.

Thank you for the clarification of your up to the minute opinion on Mattie Forde.

No problem, anytime, just drop us an aul PM

Bandage does indeed make his arguments well; and he's a lovely guy too.

He's not the worst, does tend to rant every once in while though, and is probably too emotionally attached to the Irish cricket team for some reason, imo.

Competitive does not relate to the standard of teams, it relates to a number of teams of similar standard competing, whereby any one of said teams can realistically triumph. Leinster is competitive and has been for the last number of years. In this sense, considering their footballing history, it would be a a great achievement for Wexford to win a Leinster title and for Mattie to be instrumental in achieving it. Realistically a Leinster title is the most Mattie and Wexford can aspire to this year, but i don't think that should in any way detracts from his greatness - after all football is a team game and there is only so much one player can do.

It would be nice for Mattieford and Mattie Forde to win a Leinster and you are right it is the most they can aspire to.

All the great players you mentioned were fortunate enough to play for very good teams. One wonders how they have fared in a team like Wexford and if (as is most likely) they excelled, would their greatness be questioned? If so then it could be assumed that luck plays a part in greatness.

We can only wonder as it is a theoretical question.

In my opinion, my own opinion, the greatness or otherwise of any player in any sport must be judged on a wide range of criteria - facts about their career and achievements to date. I believe personal opinion on a given player only comes into the equation when comparing one great (or any standard of) player with another. ie Fitzgerald is a great player (fact - based on obvious evidence), but is he as great as Canavan - that's where the argument should begin.

He would wipe the floor with Canavan, Fitzgerald is a God (yes I am biased, but it'd be hard to say otherwise). But this is probably worth a thread by itself.

Can I ask you to state your criteria for 'Greatness'? or are they the same as bandages? i.e county titles, railways cups, international appearances?

As a matter of interest does Mattie have any Sigerson or Hogan cup medals?

[whyohwhy]

Back to the Championship.

Didnt see a whole lot of it at the weekend, too busy trying to make my white legs less white.

It was interesting to see Donegal win and Waterford lose, when they both hit a shocking amount of wides and both 'missing' key players; Mullane, Sweeney (both made short appearances), Devenney, Eoin Kelly (W) and a clearly unfit Ken McGrath.

Eoin Kelly (T) is class and could easily be better than DJ, in 20 years time people will be talking about Eoin Kelly and not DJ.

[bandage]

whyohwhy said:

Eoin Kelly (T) is class and could easily be better than DJ, in 20 years time people will be talking about Eoin Kelly and not DJ.

This is controversial but I think Eoin Kelly now is better than DJ Carey ever was. And that's no disrespect to Carey just a reflection of how highly I rate Kelly.

I absolutely loved his second goal on Sunday - it was genius and not one of the analysts, commentators or journalists picked up on it. He won possession in the hand, took a solo then back into his hand. Note that were he to hold the ball in hand again it would have been a free out for fouling the ball or 'catching the ball 3 times' as it's called. It appeared he didn't want to risk kicking for goal straight off the hurley which is very difficult so what does he do? He intentionally allows the ball to bounce off the ground back up onto his stick thus allowing him to legally grasp the ball in hand again and carefully and skillfully flick the ball to the net with the outside of his foot. A goal of real beauty.

Meanwhile in the studio Ger and Cyril are lamenting the lack of a tackle 'even there when he lost control of the ball for a second.' NO HE NEVER!

[eamo]

His second goal was awesome. The flick with the outside of his boot was incredible.

What about the Dubs in Longford? It is a Wexford/Laois Leinster final now for me....