The GAA Thread

[steamboatsam]

iamthelaw said:

admin said:

Also, I heard that Kildare are calling for a replay. If so, I think they're embarrassing themselves. The 6th substitution was in the last minute, and hardly affected the result. That was the difference between Cork-Tipp (where result stood because the infringement had no effect) and Sligo-Kildare in the League a few years ago (where the game finished level and Sligo were awarded the extra point).

Personally I hope the result stands (and if the officials sanctioned the substitution it should definitely stand, just as if the ref allowed a player take too many steps before scoring, the other side would have no comeback) and that Kildare's bad karma earns them an away trip to Omagh in the qualifiers.

Kildare's point will be that they had to play the last 10 mins with 14 players as they had already used their 5 subs, whereas Offaly were allowed to use 6 - ie they were in theory penalised for abiding by the rules.

I'm pretty sure also that it's stated in the rules that it's down tothe management to ensure that they comply with the rules regarding substitutions so they can't really use the defence "We were told it was ok to bring the player on".

In saying that i agree the result wasn't affected and i hope it stands.

[therock67]

eamo said:

admin said:

At the risk of repeating "live" conversations here I'd like to lend my support to the notion that Wexford used Forde very intelligently on Sunday. In previous games Forde has been stuck in the corner and as a result he's been easy for defences to isolate: even McKeigue could have a stab at marking him. When they pulled him out to half forward there's more responsibility on him to get involved, but there's also more opportunities for him to receive the ball. There's nothing forced about feeding in quality ball to your centre forward and Forde showed very well on the wings to offer himself as an easy out ball. He knocked over his points with ease but by no means were Wexford trying to structure their play around him - it 's obvious though that if you play him at centre forward he will attract much more ball naturally.

That is true to a certain extent. But with that there is a danger that Wexford will put everything through Forde. This happened to Mayo when Ciaran McDonald played there.

Also you lose Forde from the inside and his natural poaching ability is underutilised.

You mentioned that Dublin should put Bryan Cullen on him if and when they meet. I don't agree with that. With that you are taking possibly your best footballer out of the game on the off chance that he will be able to mark the greatest footballer in the country. You are also assuming that Forde will play at centre forward. What I would say is that I'm sure counties have limited Forde's involvement (you can never really stop him - he's too good) and haven't put their best player on him. Its also naive to suggest that one player willl stop another. Dublin should tailor their defensive tactics around cutting the supply to Forde out and hence only a reasonable marker would then be required.

I agree with you on Bryan Cullen - I think I was more anxious to have a fellow Fingallian acknowleged as Dublin's best player than anything. No point in limiting his involvement to marking Forde, who could play anywhere.

I also take your point on the Ciaran McDonald point, but McDonald is a playmaker and would never score the amount of points Forde knocks over. McDonald scores spectacular points and he is a beautiful footballer to watch but Mayo rely on him as a creative force to play through. For Wexford Forde is more of a shooter so if he's marked they can still create chances themselves.

[therock67]

steamboatsam said:

iamthelaw said:

admin said:

Also, I heard that Kildare are calling for a replay. If so, I think they're embarrassing themselves. The 6th substitution was in the last minute, and hardly affected the result. That was the difference between Cork-Tipp (where result stood because the infringement had no effect) and Sligo-Kildare in the League a few years ago (where the game finished level and Sligo were awarded the extra point).

Personally I hope the result stands (and if the officials sanctioned the substitution it should definitely stand, just as if the ref allowed a player take too many steps before scoring, the other side would have no comeback) and that Kildare's bad karma earns them an away trip to Omagh in the qualifiers.

Kildare's point will be that they had to play the last 10 mins with 14 players as they had already used their 5 subs, whereas Offaly were allowed to use 6 - ie they were in theory penalised for abiding by the rules.

I'm pretty sure also that it's stated in the rules that it's down tothe management to ensure that they comply with the rules regarding substitutions so they can't really use the defence "We were told it was ok to bring the player on".

In saying that i agree the result wasn't affected and i hope it stands.

I agree with all that. Normally I'd be accusing Kildare of being sore-losers over this rule book stuff but in fairness to them they were severely hampered by applying the very rule that Offaly broke. The sixth sub for Offaly wouldn't have changed anything but had Kildare made a sixth change it could have had an effect.

iamthelaw: I think the confusion arises from the fact that they changed the rules for the start of the Championship and the official was quoting an old rule. Not 100% sure on that but I think that's why he got it wrong.

[eamo]

admin said:

eamo said:

That is true to a certain extent. But with that there is a danger that Wexford will put everything through Forde. This happened to Mayo when Ciaran McDonald played there.

Also you lose Forde from the inside and his natural poaching ability is underutilised.

You mentioned that Dublin should put Bryan Cullen on him if and when they meet. I don't agree with that. With that you are taking possibly your best footballer out of the game on the off chance that he will be able to mark the greatest footballer in the country. You are also assuming that Forde will play at centre forward. What I would say is that I'm sure counties have limited Forde's involvement (you can never really stop him - he's too good) and haven't put their best player on him. Its also naive to suggest that one player willl stop another. Dublin should tailor their defensive tactics around cutting the supply to Forde out and hence only a reasonable marker would then be required.

I agree with you on Bryan Cullen - I think I was more anxious to have a fellow Fingallian acknowleged as Dublin's best player than anything. No point in limiting his involvement to marking Forde, who could play anywhere.

I also take your point on the Ciaran McDonald point, but McDonald is a playmaker and would never score the amount of points Forde knocks over. McDonald scores spectacular points and he is a beautiful footballer to watch but Mayo rely on him as a creative force to play through. For Wexford Forde is more of a shooter so if he's marked they can still create chances themselves.

So the point you made on Bryan Cullen last night was wrong? Good to see you finally admitting that you can talk absolute horse manure

[iamthelaw]

admin said:

I agree with all that. Normally I'd be accusing Kildare of being sore-losers over this rule book stuff but in fairness to them they were severely hampered by applying the very rule that Offaly broke. The sixth sub for Offaly wouldn't have changed anything but had Kildare made a sixth change it could have had an effect.

iamthelaw: I think the confusion arises from the fact that they changed the rules for the start of the Championship and the official was quoting an old rule. Not 100% sure on that but I think that's why he got it wrong.

Well I'm far from being an expert on this (I saw a guy in a black and yellow tracksuit top the other day & wondered for a moment if it was a Wellington Hurricanes top before realising that it was far more likely to be, and indeed was, from Kilkenny) but the two versions of the rules I've found were from December 2003 and 2005, and the extract from them is the one quoted by the lads on the Sunday Game. So unless all the media have also been quoting the wrong rule, the rule I quoted has been in force for at least 2 1/2 years.

Also, I don't think the Kildare 6th sub is an issue; I think the only question should be, did the Offaly 6th sub make any difference to the result, and if it didn't, the result should stand.

[therock67]

iamthelaw said:

admin said:

I agree with all that. Normally I'd be accusing Kildare of being sore-losers over this rule book stuff but in fairness to them they were severely hampered by applying the very rule that Offaly broke. The sixth sub for Offaly wouldn't have changed anything but had Kildare made a sixth change it could have had an effect.

iamthelaw: I think the confusion arises from the fact that they changed the rules for the start of the Championship and the official was quoting an old rule. Not 100% sure on that but I think that's why he got it wrong.

Well I'm far from being an expert on this (I saw a guy in a black and yellow tracksuit top the other day & wondered for a moment if it was a Wellington Hurricanes top before realising that it was far more likely to be, and indeed was, from Kilkenny) but the two versions of the rules I've found were from December 2003 and 2005, and the extract from them is the one quoted by the lads on the Sunday Game. So unless all the media have also been quoting the wrong rule, the rule I quoted has been in force for at least 2 1/2 years.

Also, I don't think the Kildare 6th sub is an issue; I think the only question should be, did the Offaly 6th sub make any difference to the result, and if it didn't, the result should stand.

I agree that the result should stand - I'm just not accusing Kildare of sour grapes because it was tough on them and extremely sloppy by the officials.

Regarding the rules I haven't seen the rule book and I assume you're correct: in all likelihood it was someone making excuses for the lapse by suggesting it was a new amenement to the rules.

[iamthelaw]

admin said:

I agree that the result should stand - I'm just not accusing Kildare of sour grapes because it was tough on them and extremely sloppy by the officials.

Regarding the rules I haven't seen the rule book and I assume you're correct: in all likelihood it was someone making excuses for the lapse by suggesting it was a new amenement to the rules.

Fair enough. I wouldn't assume I'm correct about the rules, but you'd think the GAA would make it easier to find them. I've looked around their website for a while without success, and had to go via Google in the end. I mean, even the tag rugby website has their rules up there.

[bandage]

iamthelaw said:

admin said:

I agree that the result should stand - I'm just not accusing Kildare of sour grapes because it was tough on them and extremely sloppy by the officials.

Regarding the rules I haven't seen the rule book and I assume you're correct: in all likelihood it was someone making excuses for the lapse by suggesting it was a new amenement to the rules.

Fair enough. I wouldn't assume I'm correct about the rules, but you'd think the GAA would make it easier to find them. I've looked around their website for a while without success, and had to go via Google in the end. I mean, even the tag rugby website has their rules up there.

Agree on the rules. Spent a good 20 mins looking for them yesterday to no avail. Agree also that you should take into account the effect the 6th player for Offaly had rather than Kildare's misfortune in being unable to replace their injured player having already used their subs. But it is a tough one for Kildare to swallow and I can understand how it must grate with them.

[whyohwhy]

eamo said:

Look, its no doubt he's a good footballer, but he falls a long way short of a Great Footballer, alas much like the fantastic Declan Browne of Tipperary, the summit of his ambitions is a Provincial title, Leinster has proven to be a strange province with numerous flash in the pans over the past number of years (westmeath prime prime example) even Kildare and Laois to a lesser extent.

Its a pity that the only truely competitive province now is Ulster, but i suppose thats why the qualifiers are such a good thing, it gives good teams from the pther 3 weaker provinces (Kerry, Galwey, Mayo & Dublin) extra matches before they meet the battle hardened Ulster teams who will have had, in some cases, 3 hard competitive matches before they reach the All-Ireland series

Mattieford and Mattie in particular are a long long way from achieving greatness. I would fear for Mattieford if they won Leinster as they would get destroyed in the All-Ireland series, example: Laois when they got steamrolled by Armagh a few years ago and Dublin when they lost to Armagh in a match they should have won.

[bandage]

whyohwhy said:

eamo said:

Look, its no doubt he's a good footballer, but he falls a long way short of a Great Footballer, alas much like the fantastic Declan Browne of Tipperary, the summit of his ambitions is a Provincial title, Leinster has proven to be a strange province with numerous flash in the pans over the past number of years (westmeath prime prime example) even Kildare and Laois to a lesser extent.

Its a pity that the only truely competitive province now is Ulster, but i suppose thats why the qualifiers are such a good thing, it gives good teams from the pther 3 weaker provinces (Kerry, Galwey, Mayo & Dublin) extra matches before they meet the battle hardened Ulster teams who will have had, in some cases, 3 hard competitive matches before they reach the All-Ireland series

Mattieford and Mattie in particular are a long long way from achieving greatness. I would fear for Mattieford if they won Leinster as they would get destroyed in the All-Ireland series, example: Laois when they got steamrolled by Armagh a few years ago and Dublin when they lost to Armagh in a match they should have won.

To be honest a Leinster would mean everything to us. We can worry about anything else after that. 60 years is a long time to be waiting for one. Just because the summit of our ambitions as a team is probably a Leinster doesn't necessarily mean Forde on his own can't be classed as great. What then for the likes of a George Best when he played for Northern Ireland? was he not great?The facts are that in the last two years he's been top scorer in Division 1 in the NFL by a street and racked up some incredible scoring feats in the Championship. I don't think anybody who was there will ever forget the 2-10 against Offaly in 2004, there was last Sunday and various others in between and before and definitely after. All this in a team who invariably have had chronic problems winning first phase ball in midfield with the result that he's been living off scraps for much of this time. I don't know many other Gaelic footballers who can kick points on the run from the sideline with both feet. He can. Because he's great.

[whyohwhy]

bandage said:

whyohwhy said:

eamo said:

Look, its no doubt he's a good footballer, but he falls a long way short of a Great Footballer, alas much like the fantastic Declan Browne of Tipperary, the summit of his ambitions is a Provincial title, Leinster has proven to be a strange province with numerous flash in the pans over the past number of years (westmeath prime prime example) even Kildare and Laois to a lesser extent.

Its a pity that the only truely competitive province now is Ulster, but i suppose thats why the qualifiers are such a good thing, it gives good teams from the pther 3 weaker provinces (Kerry, Galwey, Mayo & Dublin) extra matches before they meet the battle hardened Ulster teams who will have had, in some cases, 3 hard competitive matches before they reach the All-Ireland series

Mattieford and Mattie in particular are a long long way from achieving greatness. I would fear for Mattieford if they won Leinster as they would get destroyed in the All-Ireland series, example: Laois when they got steamrolled by Armagh a few years ago and Dublin when they lost to Armagh in a match they should have won.

To be honest a Leinster would mean everything to us. We can worry about anything else after that. 60 years is a long time to be waiting for one. Just because the summit of our ambitions as a team is probably a Leinster doesn't necessarily mean Forde on his own can't be classed as great. What then for the likes of a George Best when he played for Northern Ireland? was he not great?The facts are that in the last two years he's been top scorer in Division 1 in the NFL by a street and racked up some incredible scoring feats in the Championship. I don't think anybody who was there will ever forget the 2-10 against Offaly in 2004, there was last Sunday and various others in between and before and definitely after. All this in a team who invariably have had chronic problems winning first phase ball in midfield with the result that he's been living off scraps for much of this time. I don't know many other Gaelic footballers who can kick points on the run from the sideline with both feet. He can. Because he's great.

George Best was classed as great because of what he did for Man Utd not for what he did with Norn Iron.

It would be nice for Mattieford for win a Leinster, 60 years is a long wait and it will do wonders for the GAA (football) in Mattieford. My point is that Leinster is a weak province and no serious county will give Mattie the space to even think of scoring 2-10 in the All-Ireland series.

As for scoring 2-10 in the league, that is some feat, but the league is the league; only used as a warm-up for the chamionship, no serious All-Ireland contenders place any serious emphasis on it.

Mattie Ford will never be a great player until he does it on the big day against good teams. Offaly are not a good team. Just like Declan Browne is a good player, but not a great player.

I have never seen Mattie score from the sideline on the run with both feet, so i will take your word for it. But to be a great player he will have to do it consistently in a big match with the ravenous dogs from Armagh chasing him, after belting seven shades of shit out of him 2 minutes earlier.

[bandage]

The 2-10 against Offaly I referred to was in the championship in 2004. They had 4 different markers on him in the 1st half and another few in the 2nd. When questioned about this after the game Pat Roe, our manager at the time said, 'Even God wouldn't have marked Mattie tonight.' I'll give you that Offaly are not a top tier county though.

Forde was MOTM against Tyrone in a live televised qualifier in Wexford Park in 2002 and that's when we had a terrible structure and management team in place which made it hard for us to flourish. He kicked some remarkable points that night. The only team I've seen him struggle against in championship was Derry in a couple of qualifier games in 2003 and 2004. Again in 2003 we had no morale or structure in place; a manager who was out of his depth. In 2004 they beat us around physically around the middle third and he was starved of supply - he still scored a goal and a few points from play off Lockhart though.

I really don't see how you can't class him as a great player. Forde has represented his country, scoring goals and overs against Australia, won inter-provincial medals with Leinster and a raft of county titles with Kilanerin though he's the only player from the club on the starting 15 for Wexford.

If you've never seen him score with either foot on the run then you've possibly never seen him play live? Then I don't know how you can conclude he's not a great footballer.

[whyohwhy]

bandage said:

The 2-10 against Offaly I referred to was in the championship in 2004. They had 4 different markers on him in the 1st half and another few in the 2nd. When questioned about this after the game Pat Roe, our manager at the time said, 'Even God wouldn't have marked Mattie tonight.' I'll give you that Offaly are not a top tier county though.

Forde was MOTM against Tyrone in a live televised qualifier in Wexford Park in 2002 and that's when we had a terrible structure and management team in place which made it hard for us to flourish. He kicked some remarkable points that night. The only team I've seen him struggle against in championship was Derry in a couple of qualifier games in 2003 and 2004. Again in 2003 we had no morale or structure in place; a manager who was out of his depth. In 2004 they beat us around physically around the middle third and he was starved of supply - he still scored a goal and a few points from play off Lockhart though.

I really don't see how you can't class him as a great player. Forde has represented his country, scoring goals and overs against Australia, won inter-provincial medals with Leinster and a raft of county titles with Kilanerin though he's the only player from the club on the starting 15 for Wexford.

If you've never seen him score with either foot on the run then you've possibly never seen him play live? Then I don't know how you can conclude he's not a great footballer.

I have seen him play live, he just didnt do it (score from the sidelines on the run with both feet as you stated above, i did see him score with both feet, but not from the sideline while running, scoring with both feet is not unusual for inter-county players)when i was watching. You stated the scoring from the sideline while running with both feet, i didnt see that, i'm not denying it happened, i just haven't seen it

Being the only player from his club on the Mattieford team means fuck all. Inter-provincial medals are worthless these days.

I can easily conclude that he's not a great player and only a good player. I'm not from Mattieford so am not biased as you appear to be.

If there was a transfer system in GAA, then Mattie would be in the top 5 wanted players easily, then he'd get to play in the Big Games and then maybe and only maybe might he get the chance to be classed as great.

BTW since you mention MOTM, I hate MOTM awards in the GAA. Fuck MOTM awards in GAA, this is GAA, a proper team sport, i think MOTM awards for GAA are such bullshit, Let fucking soccer and basketball keep their MOTM awards. A parish sport doesnt need MOTM, the team is the be all and end all. I'm sure it was only brought in to please the sponsors and give RTE some more fucking money with the premium numbers.

[therock67]

On the Mattieford question I have to say I think the lad is great. I've seen him live probably 4 or 5 times at this stage (all in the Championsip) and he's looked a class act on every occasion. I'm not sure what you want him to do before you will consider him great. Everyone knows he's playing for a team that aren't considered great themselves and therefore his opportunities against the top counties will be limited. That's the nature of gaelic games though. He plays for his club and his county and excels for both.

It's also a bit harsh to dismiss the relevance of MOTM awards in the context of evaluating the merits of an individual player. Whyohwhy asked for evidence of Forde doing it against the top counties and a MOTM award against Tyrone is evidence of that. The points about a team game and parish sports are all very relevant but only if you're willing to accept the achievements of Forde when representing his parish. You said "Being the only player from his club... matters fuck all." This hardly tallies with your later arguments for dismissing MOTM awards.

Anyway I'm not from Wexford but I've seen them play a number of times due to their participation in various double-headers with Dublin/Westmeath involvement and because they played Louth in Parnell Park a few years back. I've never failed to be impressed by Forde. Sometimes he is quieter than others but he has always had the gift of standing up his marker and going to either foot to knock one over. This is not common in the GAA these days - in fact guys are lauded for being able to solo with one foot and kick with the other. Kicking points comfortably from 40 yards with either foot is a different matter.

[bandage]

Hear, hear - I'm not engaging in any more pleonasm on the subject because Forde simply is class.

[bandage]

From rte.ie:

'The Kildare County Board has decided to await the outcome of Saturday's Central Council meeting before deciding any further action, if any, in regards to the substitute controversy arising from last Sunday's Leinster SFC clash with Offaly.

A statement released by the board revealed that a special meeting of the board last night was unanimous in the view that Offaly had broken Rule 113 (b).

The board has also insisted that Kildare were invited to attend a meeting convened by the Leinster Council's GAC.


The board said that the GAC had sought their views and they accepted the invitation after 'careful consideration'.

It said Kildare has paid a 'heavy price' for such situations in the past, highlighting the NFL game with Sligo in 2002 and Leinster SHC match with Westmeath in 2004.

They also recalled the incident when Na Fianna used six subs against Sarsfields in 2001, resulting in the Dublin club having to forfeit the game. The Newbridge club offered their opponents a replay.

The statement said that this decision was 'much to the benefit of the game as a whole', which would indicate that they would happy for the game to be replayed.

Kildare were convincingly beaten 3-09 to 0-15 in Sunday's game at Croke Park, but Offaly are accused of bringing on a sixth substitute in the last minute.

The Faithful may argue that - if proven - the extra substitute, coming as late as it did, gave them no real advantage.

However, the Lilywhites will point to the fact that they played the last ten minutes with only 14 men, as they had used their allotted five replacements before Karl Ennis was forced to leave the field through injury.'

Very interesting and they cite a lot of the games we discussed as precedents - definitely want a replay it seems which actually probably suits Wexford to be honest.

[iamthelaw]

bandage said:

pleonasm

Exalt for teaching me a new word. For anyone else who was wondering, pleonasm is "the use of more words than necessary to express an idea".

[humbug]

Great: standing above others in character or attainment or reputation.

Good: better than average; satisfactory.

Mattie Forde (All Star) is a great footballer. Declan Browne (All Star) is a great footballer. Our own Kevin O'Brien (All Star) is a great footballer. Apologies to Bandage for engaging in pleonasm but I can't remain silent on this one.

I think people have become too caught up in recent times about whether someone or a team is good or great. It has become one of the great (no pun in ten did) cliches of our times. It all started with Dunphy..."he's a good player Bill, but not a great player". Joe Kernan did his bit too..."good teams win one All Ireland; great teams win two!". This is pure bullsh1t. Armagh 2003 were a good team but by going all the way they became great. Describing Mattie Forde as a good player is an insult to the man and it is grammatically incorrect. [hands up who double checked my spelling of grammatically?]

I haven't exalted anyone on this forum yet but I think whyohwhy may be due one. Great call by him on the MOTM issue. MOTM awards have no place in Gaelic Games. A few years back RTE used to run MOTM by way of a public phone-in but they had to stop because every time Galway played Padraig Joyce won it. It turned out that lads from his own club were backing him heavily to win it at odds of around 6, 7, 8-1 and were phoning in like fook to make sure he won no matter how sh1te he was after playing.

[whyohwhy]

admin said:

On the Mattieford question I have to say I think the lad is great. I've seen him live probably 4 or 5 times at this stage (all in the Championsip) and he's looked a class act on every occasion. I'm not sure what you want him to do before you will consider him great. Everyone knows he's playing for a team that aren't considered great themselves and therefore his opportunities against the top counties will be limited. That's the nature of gaelic games though. He plays for his club and his county and excels for both.

It's also a bit harsh to dismiss the relevance of MOTM awards in the context of evaluating the merits of an individual player. Whyohwhy asked for evidence of Forde doing it against the top counties and a MOTM award against Tyrone is evidence of that. The points about a team game and parish sports are all very relevant but only if you're willing to accept the achievements of Forde when representing his parish. You said "Being the only player from his club... matters fuck all." This hardly tallies with your later arguments for dismissing MOTM awards.

Anyway I'm not from Wexford but I've seen them play a number of times due to their participation in various double-headers with Dublin/Westmeath involvement and because they played Louth in Parnell Park a few years back. I've never failed to be impressed by Forde. Sometimes he is quieter than others but he has always had the gift of standing up his marker and going to either foot to knock one over. This is not common in the GAA these days - in fact guys are lauded for being able to solo with one foot and kick with the other. Kicking points comfortably from 40 yards with either foot is a different matter.

My dismissing of MOTM awards has fuck all to do with Mattie Ford. It was a personal rant.

As for being the only player from his club, I stated that, as it hardly has anything to do with a player being great.

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

Kudos to Golf here, but I feel the most I can give Mattie will be 'Best player never to win an All-Ireland'. I'd like to see him on the big stage regularly and get the credit and rewards he deserves. But it aint going to happen.

[tommymoore]

Bandage do you know who won the Galway V Wexford challenge game last Saturday evening? Was down in Galway last weekend and heard they were playing but did not hear a result. Thought you may be the person to ask seeing as you have links with the Wexford PRO?!

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

It's rather harsh to consider only one of the four provinces to be a substantial prize - I presume you aren't claiming that Munster or Connacht is more competitive.

Secondly, it's a team game. If a team (& I'm not stating that this is the case with Wexford) consists of 14 mediocre players and 1 other, no matter how great, they can't expect success. And so one can't knock the great player if they don't succeed.

[therock67]

whyohwhy said:

admin said:

On the Mattieford question I have to say I think the lad is great. I've seen him live probably 4 or 5 times at this stage (all in the Championsip) and he's looked a class act on every occasion. I'm not sure what you want him to do before you will consider him great. Everyone knows he's playing for a team that aren't considered great themselves and therefore his opportunities against the top counties will be limited. That's the nature of gaelic games though. He plays for his club and his county and excels for both.

It's also a bit harsh to dismiss the relevance of MOTM awards in the context of evaluating the merits of an individual player. Whyohwhy asked for evidence of Forde doing it against the top counties and a MOTM award against Tyrone is evidence of that. The points about a team game and parish sports are all very relevant but only if you're willing to accept the achievements of Forde when representing his parish. You said "Being the only player from his club... matters fuck all." This hardly tallies with your later arguments for dismissing MOTM awards.

Anyway I'm not from Wexford but I've seen them play a number of times due to their participation in various double-headers with Dublin/Westmeath involvement and because they played Louth in Parnell Park a few years back. I've never failed to be impressed by Forde. Sometimes he is quieter than others but he has always had the gift of standing up his marker and going to either foot to knock one over. This is not common in the GAA these days - in fact guys are lauded for being able to solo with one foot and kick with the other. Kicking points comfortably from 40 yards with either foot is a different matter.

My dismissing of MOTM awards has fuck all to do with Mattie Ford. It was a personal rant.

As for being the only player from his club, I stated that, as it hardly has anything to do with a player being great.

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

Kudos to Golf here, but I feel the most I can give Mattie will be 'Best player never to win an All-Ireland'. I'd like to see him on the big stage regularly and get the credit and rewards he deserves. But it aint going to happen.

But "the best player never to win an All-Ireland" is surely a great player - see Humbug's post for clarification. I agree with ye on the MOTM awards to a certain extent, but if you won't accept any other barometer of Forde's ability, because they're only against Leinster counters, then it's a bit much to dismiss his performance against Tyrone.

The point about him being the only club representative on the county panel needs to be read in conjunction with the fact that his club have won "a raft of county titles." It suggests that his club are over achieving with Mattie in the side.

[bandage]

whyohwhy said:

admin said:

On the Mattieford question I have to say I think the lad is great. I've seen him live probably 4 or 5 times at this stage (all in the Championsip) and he's looked a class act on every occasion. I'm not sure what you want him to do before you will consider him great. Everyone knows he's playing for a team that aren't considered great themselves and therefore his opportunities against the top counties will be limited. That's the nature of gaelic games though. He plays for his club and his county and excels for both.

It's also a bit harsh to dismiss the relevance of MOTM awards in the context of evaluating the merits of an individual player. Whyohwhy asked for evidence of Forde doing it against the top counties and a MOTM award against Tyrone is evidence of that. The points about a team game and parish sports are all very relevant but only if you're willing to accept the achievements of Forde when representing his parish. You said "Being the only player from his club... matters fuck all." This hardly tallies with your later arguments for dismissing MOTM awards.

Anyway I'm not from Wexford but I've seen them play a number of times due to their participation in various double-headers with Dublin/Westmeath involvement and because they played Louth in Parnell Park a few years back. I've never failed to be impressed by Forde. Sometimes he is quieter than others but he has always had the gift of standing up his marker and going to either foot to knock one over. This is not common in the GAA these days - in fact guys are lauded for being able to solo with one foot and kick with the other. Kicking points comfortably from 40 yards with either foot is a different matter.

My dismissing of MOTM awards has fuck all to do with Mattie Ford. It was a personal rant.

As for being the only player from his club, I stated that, as it hardly has anything to do with a player being great.

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

Kudos to Golf here, but I feel the most I can give Mattie will be 'Best player never to win an All-Ireland'. I'd like to see him on the big stage regularly and get the credit and rewards he deserves. But it aint going to happen.

With all due respect Munster is hardly a hot bed of football - I think Gooch has won one All Ireland and they didn't play Tyrone or Armagh in that run to the final. Last year he tore Mayo apart, has destroyed Cork in the past too - these are all teams comparable to the teams in Leinster that Forde has done damage to. Remember the performance Forde had against Tyrone too.

Gooch kicked a couple of nice points in last year's final but wasn't in any way influential in the second half. I'm not saying he is not a great player because I think he is - but to dismiss everything Forde has achieved smacks of Kerry arrogance to be honest.

[whyohwhy]

bandage said:

whyohwhy said:

My dismissing of MOTM awards has fuck all to do with Mattie Ford. It was a personal rant.

As for being the only player from his club, I stated that, as it hardly has anything to do with a player being great.

Mattie Ford is a good player, that is all. Until he wins a substantial medal he will only be a good player. Alas, due to the lack of serious competition in Leinster (Westmeath, for fuck sake), a Leinster title is not substantial.

Kudos to Golf here, but I feel the most I can give Mattie will be 'Best player never to win an All-Ireland'. I'd like to see him on the big stage regularly and get the credit and rewards he deserves. But it aint going to happen.

With all due respect Munster is hardly a hot bed of football - I think Gooch has won one All Ireland and they didn't play Tyrone or Armagh in that run to the final. Last year he tore Mayo apart, has destroyed Cork in the past too - these are all teams comparable to the teams in Leinster that Forde has done damage to. Remember the performance Forde had against Tyrone too.

Gooch kicked a couple of nice points in last year's final but wasn't in any way influential in the second half. I'm not saying he is not a great player because I think he is - but to dismiss everything Forde has achieved smacks of Kerry arrogance to be honest.

Bandage, bandage, bandage I knew you wouldnt be able to hold on.

Where in this thread have I mentioned Gooch? Where have i been arrogant about Kerry in this thread? Where have i even mentioned being from Kerry in this thread? Your personal feelings again ruin a perfectly good and informative debate, fucking typical!

[bandage]

whyohwhy said:

bandage said:

With all due respect Munster is hardly a hot bed of football - I think Gooch has won one All Ireland and they didn't play Tyrone or Armagh in that run to the final. Last year he tore Mayo apart, has destroyed Cork in the past too - these are all teams comparable to the teams in Leinster that Forde has done damage to. Remember the performance Forde had against Tyrone too.

Gooch kicked a couple of nice points in last year's final but wasn't in any way influential in the second half. I'm not saying he is not a great player because I think he is - but to dismiss everything Forde has achieved smacks of Kerry arrogance to be honest.

Bandage, bandage, bandage I knew you wouldnt be able to hold on.

Where in this thread have I mentioned Gooch? Where have i been arrogant about Kerry in this thread? Where have i even mentioned being from Kerry in this thread? Your personal feelings again ruin a perfectly good and informative debate, fucking typical!

Fair point. Who is a great player in the modern game then iyo? More particularly who would you class 'a great forward'?