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Post by humbug on Aug 3, 2006 7:50:42 GMT
I've always had a lot of time for the Spanish Civil War. It had a bit of everything....fascism, anarchists, communists, socialists. Religion played a big part too. It had a real international dimension and many Irish were involved on both sides. All this in the relative backwater of Spain. It also had Hemingway and Orwell.
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Post by therock67 on Aug 3, 2006 8:42:49 GMT
Aside from our own conflict with our near neighbours I'd probably go for the Spanish Civil War too. It inspired a smashing painting in Guernica, a smashing song in Vive la Quinte Brigada and a smashing film in Land and Freedom. I haven't read a smashing book on it yet though - any recommendations 'Bug?
It was a brilliant war of idealisms. The first world war was widespread carnage for no discernible aim. The second world war was obviously prosecuted by the allies against a tyrant but how many of the participants chose to fight on ideological grounds?
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pagey
Joe Brolly
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Post by pagey on Aug 3, 2006 9:52:07 GMT
For me it would have to be the six day war. The Israelis were fighting on three fronts with less then 1/4 of the airforce, and about a half of full time troops then the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians. Not only did they hold the Arabs off they took the Golan Heights (from Syria), Gaza Strip (Egypt) and the West Bank (Jordan). Some of the stories are just amazing of what they accomplished such as the battle at kibbutz Yad Mordechai. Around 20 citizens many women and old men armed with old weapons held off an Egyptian platoon (tanks, armoured cars etc all newly supplied by the English) long enough for re-enforcement to come from Tel Aviv. I suppose when your fighting for the continued existence of your country, people put in superhuman efforts.
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Post by whyohwhy on Aug 3, 2006 9:56:00 GMT
I suppose when your fighting for the continued existence of your country, people put in superhuman efforts. or trying to destroy others |
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pagey
Joe Brolly
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Post by pagey on Aug 3, 2006 10:08:56 GMT
Please tell me whose existence are the Israelis trying to destroy?
Don't say the Lebanonese because if they wanted to destroy the Lebanonese existence they would have pushed a full ground force offensive the moment the two soldiers were kidnapped by the Hizbollah. They are fighting a terrorist organisation operating in Lebanon, not the Lebanonese army.
And don't say Palestine either as Israel would not have given the Gaza strip to the Palestinians if they don't want them to exist. They are also in the process of drawing up a two state solution and have constantly called for a two state solution however it is Hamas, Iranians, Syrians who are the ones who don't recognise the Israeli State and have called for it to be wiped out of existence. The reason that the Palestine-Israeli conflict will keep going on is that both sides will not give up Jerusalem. The only solution there is to make Jerusalem an international state.
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Post by whyohwhy on Aug 3, 2006 10:21:50 GMT
Don't say the Lebanonese because if they wanted to destroy the Lebanonese existence they would have pushed a full ground force offensive the moment the two soldiers were kidnapped by the Hizbollah. They are fighting a terrorist organisation operating in Lebanon, not the Lebanonese army. They have mounted a ground offensive. Whats your take on the killing of 37 children in Qana the other day? Did they all have rockets under their pillows? They give Palestine the gaza strip, dont let them leave it to go to the other parts of Palestine to work etc etc? Build a steel wall around parts of Palestine, cutting through farmland (palestinian farmland, not Israeli land). Regularly arrest Palestinian young men, cos they must be terrorists!! (seems like internment to me). You remind me of this guy i work with. He's a mad Sinn Fein head, loves Celtic, hugely nationalistic, regularly castigates the Brits for anything, yet is fully supportive of the Israeli massacre in Lebanon. And everybody who knows him can't understand how he supports Israel |
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pagey
Joe Brolly
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Post by pagey on Aug 3, 2006 10:59:57 GMT
Firstly yes they have mounted a ground offensive but my point was that if they wanted to remove the existence of Lebanon they would have mounted one two weeks, however that is not in their agenda. They want to get their two kidnapped soldiers back. They want to destroy a terrorist organisation who were set up (by Syria and Iran) for the one reason - Destruction of the State of Israel.
Yes Qana was a mistake which has been admited by the Israelis. These things happen in Wars.
Before Hamas got into power they gave back the Gaza Strip and were in the process of setting up a two state solution and were going to allow for the connect of both parts of Palestine together (going through Israeli land). However now that Hamas are in power this has all stopped, as they are a terrorist organisation and have said that they will not talk to Israel as they do not recognise its existence. Instead they have continued to send in suicide bombers into Israel through Gaza. Have captured an israeli soldier. I for one wouldn't blame them for putting up a huge steel wall. If you had seen the program last monday called Mohammd & Judah you would realise why the israelis reguarly arrest Palestinian men. They are being thought in school to hate israelis.
For a start I am not a mad Sinn Fein head, it just disgusts me when people do not recognise Sinn Fein as a political party and that they are not part of the IRA anymore. Certainly at one time the majority of them were, just like Fianna Fail was filled with IRA members when it was first created. I disagree with a lot of their policies but admire them because they are the only party in the land who are still fighting for a United Ireland.
Secondly I do not see what supporting Celtic has to do the Israeli-Palestine situation. I do not see the connection. It pisses me off when I see people flying the Palestinian, Iraqi flags at Celtic Park. There is no connection.
Again you say massacre of Lebanon. If Israel wanted to massacre Lebanon it would be massacred at this stage.
Also the Israeli - Palestine situation is completely different then the 6 counties conflict. It is like comparing apples and oranges. The Irish situation is a simple as it only has two factors. Brits come and take over 32 counties in Ireland, huge plantations mostly in Ulster. We get back 26counties. Still 32 -26 = 6. Therefore 6 counties are still left to be gotten back. Simple as that.
The Israeli - Palestine situation is far more complex. The number of factors involved in that situation is numerous. You just can't compare the two.
Thats what pisses me off. People are of the assumption that because you are a celtic supporter you must support the IRA, Ireland, be a Roman Catholic, support Palestine, Iraq, hate Americans, Bush and the British. That is pure rubbish.
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Post by whyohwhy on Aug 3, 2006 11:19:36 GMT
Firstly yes they have mounted a ground offensive but my point was that if they wanted to remove the existence of Lebanon they would have mounted one two weeks, however that is not in their agenda. They want to get their two kidnapped soldiers back. They want to destroy a terrorist organisation who were set up (by Syria and Iran) for the one reason - Destruction of the State of Israel. Yes Qana was a mistake which has been admited by the Israelis. These things happen in Wars. Before Hamas got into power they gave back the Gaza Strip and were in the process of setting up a two state solution and were going to allow for the connect of both parts of Palestine together (going through Israeli land). However now that Hamas are in power this has all stopped, as they are a terrorist organisation and have said that they will not talk to Israel as they do not recognise its existence. Instead they have continued to send in suicide bombers into Israel through Gaza. Have captured an israeli soldier. I for one wouldn't blame them for putting up a huge steel wall. If you had seen the program last monday called Mohammd & Judah you would realise why the israelis reguarly arrest Palestinian men. They are being thought in school to hate israelis. For a start I am not a mad Sinn Fein head, it just disgusts me when people do not recognise Sinn Fein as a political party and that they are not part of the IRA anymore. Certainly at one time the majority of them were, just like Fianna Fail was filled with IRA members when it was first created. I disagree with a lot of their policies but admire them because they are the only party in the land who are still fighting for a United Ireland. Secondly I do not see what supporting Celtic has to do the Israeli-Palestine situation. I do not see the connection. It pisses me off when I see people flying the Palestinian, Iraqi flags at Celtic Park. There is no connection. Again you say massacre of Lebanon. If Israel wanted to massacre Lebanon it would be massacred at this stage. Also the Israeli - Palestine situation is completely different then the 6 counties conflict. It is like comparing apples and oranges. The Irish situation is a simple as it only has two factors. Brits come and take over 32 counties in Ireland, huge plantations mostly in Ulster. We get back 26counties. Still 32 -26 = 6. Therefore 6 counties are still left to be gotten back. Simple as that. The Israeli - Palestine situation is far more complex. The number of factors involved in that situation is numerous. You just can't compare the two. Thats what pisses me off. People are of the assumption that because you are a celtic supporter you must support the IRA, Ireland, be a Roman Catholic, support Palestine, Iraq, hate Americans, Bush and the British. That is pure rubbish. The only reason they haven't destroyed lebanon and palestine is because they would be worried about the reaction of the rest of the sane world. But sure, killing 4 UN PEACEkeepers, after 6 warnings about where their shells were landing, gets me thinking that they dont care. Hamas were democratically elected by the people of Palestine, same as the DUP and Sinn Fein were by the nordies! Sinn Fein are the political mouth of a terrorist organisation same as the PUP are. Sinn fein dont recognise the British presence in the north (i.e want them out), but the british government still negotiate/talk with them. Israelis came and took over Palestine and set up Kittutz's, gave back some land (refugee camps) if memory serves me right! So internment of palestinians by the Israelis is right, because of what they are taught in school! Have you read 'The Haj' & 'Exodus' by Leon Uris as a matter of interest? I just put in the celtic thing without thinking, apologies. Wasn't meant as a slur or political statement (just to empahsise this guys political leanings (i.e he doesn't support rangers)) |
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pagey
Joe Brolly
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Post by pagey on Aug 3, 2006 14:59:51 GMT
1) Qana and the UN peacekeepers are casualties of War. You are taking away from the fact that The Hizbollah captured 2 soldiers that started this off. They are demanding like a 1,000 prisoners in exchange for the two soldiers. If the Israelis had swapped them, wouldn't the snatching of another two not get more prisoners released from Israelis jails. Where would it stop. All I'm saying is if they wanted Lebonan wiped off the map the Israelis would have, the day the soldiers were captured ,sent in the troops and would be at present in Beruit . They have a way superior force and far better equiped then Lebanon. They are only going into South Lebanon because that is where the Hizbollah (a group set up for the main reason of destroying Israel) is there.
2) True they were both democratically elected. However Hamas are a recognised terrorist organisation - Sinn Féin aren't and the PIRA has disbanded as an organisation. Sinn Féin are willing to talk/negotiate with the British, DUP, UUP, SDLP etc however ever since Sunningdale the Ian Paisley has brought the agreements to an end. The huge difference is that Hamas are a terrorist organisation who want rid of Israel by means of force while Sinn Féin want them rid of by Political means.
3) The Israelis took back their land. As I have said above it is a very complex region which has been governed by numerous different countries/ people. Still it is orginally Israeli land.
4) Its actually not internment of Palestinians, they are brought in under the prevention of terrorism/ against the state laws. They are held for a certain number of time (48hours or something) and either let go or charged and given a trial date. Standard procedure in an western country. Internment is imprisonment without trial.
5)Haven't read either of those books. Are they worth reading? I will get them off you once I've finished the current books.
6) Apology accepted, it just frustrates me when people put Celtic into an equation like that. They are a none sectarian club (yes a certain minority may be but thats like saying all priests are pedos), set up for the poor Irish people. Rangers however were a sectarian club set up for Presbyterians and had a policy up until the late 80's of not signing Catholics. Alex Ferguson was booted out of the club for marrying a Catholic!
Anyway back to the subject of the thread. I have to say I love the NAM war, mainly because of my Brother. If the south vietnamise weren't so lazy and the grunts didn't spend most of the time high, the Americans might have won the war! You got to admire the intelligence of the North Vietnamse Army. From a ten year war against the French they weren't going just give up that easily. However I suppose it was the cold war era and they were scared of the domino effect etc.
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Post by therock67 on Aug 3, 2006 16:05:46 GMT
Smashing debate here lads - good to see some politics creeping in. I'm going to fling myself onto WOW's side of the argument however and I'm genuinely surprised at some of Page's thoughts. Anyway for simplicity's sake I will address Page's numbered points and might throw in some miscellaeous musings at the end.
1) Why are UN peacekeepers and civiliians in Qana "casualties of war" but armed Israeli soldiers - who have not been killed yet - are somehow outside normal warfare? Israel have no right to bang on about Geneva conventions and rules of warfare because they are in constant breach of international law. I'm not suggesting that Israel swap the two soldiers for the 1,000 in their prisons but why shouldn't Hezbollah make an effort at some bargaining? Where was the uproar when Hezbollah soldiers were captured by Israeli forces?
Obviously Israel are capable of wiping Lebanon off the map. The fact that they haven't done so is a reaction to the fact that the world would finally stand up to them if they did so.
Finally Hezbollah were setup to defend Lebanon from an Israeli invasion. It is true that they probably seek the destruction of Israel as a state, but they were set up as a resistance force, not as an aggressor as you maintain.
2) I can't believe you're buying into the UK/US semantics about what constitutes a "terrorist organisation." While obviously not identical there are great similarities between the IRA with Sinn Fein and Hamas and Hezbollah. The fact that Sinn Fein are organisationally separate from the IRA does not render them independent from their military past. Sinn Fein's move to exclusively democratic means is extremely recent as you well know. What was your attitude before then? Did you support the British in the war against the IRA at that time? (I'm sure many people did but not many who "admire" Sinn Fein).
3. Israel did take back their land and it is a very complex situtation. I agree with you there. However you are being disingenuous by claiming "it is orignally Israeli land." The area has been ruled by Jews and Muslims in various degrees of superiority from over two thousand years ago. If it was as simple as you claim there wouldn't be much of a dispute. The borders have been blurred by numerous wars and huge levels of population shifts and migrations.
4) Are you really sure that there is no internement in operation in Israel? And do you really think that Palestinians are either tried or released after 48 hours? Give us some credit for fuck's sake. There are hundreds of western people who have been interned for weeks in Israel, never mind how they deal with the Palestinians whom they treat with contempt.
5) I've not read those books either
6) Do the Palestinian murals in West Belfast frustrate you? Do the Israeli flags in loyalist areas make your proud? I wish our club was truer to its professed and intended ideologies. I love seeing the Basque and Palestinian flags at Celtic Park and I'm sure there will be Lebanon flags soon. As I've tried to debate with Humbug before I love the fact that people see Celtic as more than just a soccer team. I love the fact that we have an identity. If you don't support the Palestinian cause then I can understand you not flying a flag but don't criticise others for doing so. There are far too many apolitical people in the world these days. I'd like to think that if the Spanish Civil War took place today that Celtic Park would become a sea of republican banners. I'd hate to think we stopped caring.
I don't see the relevance of Rangers' sectarian signing policy to this argument.
Miscellaneous:
I also disagree fundamentally with your implication that Israel was really pushing for a 2-state solution while the Palestinians refused to co-operate. Again I suspect that you don't really believe that Israel has acted honourably in its dealings with Palestine. It is so easy for a modern, westernised state to portray images of reasonableness and rationale to the watching world. It's not as easy for the Palestinians to come across as well living in the abject poverty that Israel has subjected them to.
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pagey
Joe Brolly
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Post by pagey on Aug 3, 2006 16:48:10 GMT
1) A war was not going on at that time. It was the snatching of the two soldiers that started the war.
Hizbollah got their land back from Israel in 2000.Therefore they achieved what they set out to achieve. If they are not an agressor why after 6years did they start this current conflict by caturing two Israeli soldiers. The Israelis weren't going back into south lebanon until the Hizbollah captured two of their men.
2) No I did not support the British against the IRA.
3) Such a complex situation as I have mentioned above. Ok I should have said that I am of the opinion it is land that rightfully belongs to Israel. Yes there are certainly strong arguments that is Palestinian land.
6) Yes they do frustrate me. I was up around the bogside a while back and was shocked at the Palestinian flags etc around the place.
The Rangers thing was just that I got carried and was gearing up for a debate which I believe will come up tonight!! Doesn't have any relevance.
That is far enough that you disagree. Sorry I don't have longer to write on this but off for a session now. Will write more later.
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Post by humbug on Aug 3, 2006 20:43:08 GMT
Aside from our own conflict with our near neighbours I'd probably go for the Spanish Civil War too. It inspired a smashing painting in Guernica, a smashing song in Vive la Quinte Brigada and a smashing film in Land and Freedom. I haven't read a smashing book on it yet though - any recommendations 'Bug? It was a brilliant war of idealisms. The first world war was widespread carnage for no discernible aim. The second world war was obviously prosecuted by the allies against a tyrant but how many of the participants chose to fight on ideological grounds? I was hoping to get some book ideas of youse boys. Hemingway's book, For Whom the Bell Tolls, is extremely boring. Orwell's Homage to Catalonia is a much better call. I'm a huge Orwell fan though so my judgement may be clouded. |
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Post by therock67 on Aug 7, 2006 22:14:45 GMT
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Post by timofte on Aug 7, 2006 23:28:33 GMT
Cracking interview there. He tears the poor girl from Sky to pieces! Good to see him back to his usual self following the embarrassment that was Celebrity Big Brother. He's a great orator, and even if you don't agree with what he has to say he is excellent at getting his point across. I must see if there is a video on the web of his speech to the US Senate last year. That was brilliant stuff also. I don't know a huge amount about the history of the conflict in Lebanon or the middle east in general (any good books on this?) but from what I have read in the papers and also this forum I might add, it is hard not to support Lebanon's cause and feel outrage at the disproportionate response by Israel to the capture of two of their soldiers. I'm amazed that despite public opinion to the contrary Tony Blair is still toeing in behind the US in its action (inaction) on this conflict. I thought this would have been a perfect opportunity for Blair to win back support following Iraq and to come down hard on Israel demanding immediate ceasefire and withdrawal of troops. At the end of the day its all about the money for these guys. No one wants to piss off the Americans cause their companies provide so much employment and money in the West and the Americans don't want to piss off the Jews cause they control so much money and importantly the votes in America. Its a cynical but simple view of things but one which you'll find hard to disprove. DT |
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Post by timofte on Aug 7, 2006 23:52:10 GMT
Galloway would never have got away with that interview on Fox in the States. I saw a documentary a few months ago on Fox's coverage of the war in Iraq and how biased it was. Interviews would be cut and calls dropped mid-sentence if there was too strong an anti-war or anti-Bush sentiment. They also showed how events during the war were reported on different stations in different countries and how different they came across on Fox. I know Sky is a sister station of Fox and that they are both owned by the Australian tycoon, Rupert Murdoch, but there's a little more freedom on Sky, not much but at least enough to let Galloway have his tuppence worth. Anyone else see that programme on Fox News? DT |
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Post by therock67 on Aug 8, 2006 8:29:57 GMT
Is it Outfoxed you're referring to? Smashing documentary/film.
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Post by bandage on Aug 8, 2006 8:51:54 GMT
Saw that interview on Sunday night – he really did tear her a new one. Thought she was going to cry at one stage but she kept coming back with a quivering voice each time. ‘
What silly question, you really are a silly girl.’ Very funny.
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Post by timofte on Aug 8, 2006 12:38:30 GMT
Is it Outfoxed you're referring to? Smashing documentary/film. Thats probably it alright, great show. |
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