EPL

[therock67]

This is why I hate this league - so fucking overhyped it's unreal.

"Juventus have been almost as consistent a fixture in the later stages of the Champions League over the past decade as Real Madrid, Bayern Munich or Manchester United. Four of the past 11 finals have featured Juve.

Milan will also leave a huge space in continental competition."

The above quote is from Ian Hawkey in yesterday's Sunday Times. Hawkey is generally a decent writer but like nearly all English and (sadly) Irish journalists he is blinkered in his appreciation of the Premiership. By what criteria could he possibly decide that Juventus are almost as consistent a performer in the Champions League as Manchester United. 4/11 finals is almost as consistent as 1/11! Obviously Milan's two recent finals doesn't leave them in the same class as Man United but they appear to be in the next level down, judging by Hawkey's writing.

Conclusion #1: I will continue to detest the Premiership while it pales into comparison with the hype that surrounds it.

Anyway when I was reading this article yesterday I started thinking more about the EPL. I accept that it has some excellent players, though the mediocre teams in the EPL are very mediocre and would get badly found out in Serie A or La Liga IMO. I thought about how Mourinho has walked to two titles with a team that has been found out in Europe. I thought then of Wenger who hasn't had all that much money to spend but he has built a good team. Compare those two with Sir Alex and the millions he has spent. One Champions League to show for that is a really poor return. When Chelsea got money they blew United out of the water and Arsenal have been a class above United in a couple of seasons despite having much less money.

Conclusion #2: Ferguson isn't a great manager at all. He has struggled very badly tactically since the Champions League win - persisting with a lone striker up front in Europe when it has consistently failed to deliver.

[steamboatsam]

admin said:

This is why I hate this league - so fucking overhyped it's unreal.

is your contempt not more for the media which has created this hype and the people who buy into the hype, rather than the league itself?

The EPL is a product and was created purely to maximise revenues from the English game as opposed to being a mecca for quality football. The media who created this marketing phenomonen - the majority of marketing phenomena are so titled for the success with which they are sold rather than for the quality of the product (Ryder Cup, David Beckham etc) - have it in their best interests to continually force "the best league in the world" down the gullible throats of their target audience if they want to continue to maximise revenues.

What would happen to the EPL if the pundits on Sky and the tabloid journalists spoke with honesty about the quality of football being witnessed every week? People would sit up and take note. Money would gradually seep away. Fans would divert to what the media dictated was a superior investment for their time and cash.

The GAA could learn so much from the EPL about how to promote their game - they actually have a product which is underhyped.

Regarding Ferguson, i think it's more of a case that he has struggled in the transfer market than tactically. Utd haven't had enought qualioty in the last few years to make an impact in the CL and i think the decsion to play one up front was borne out of the team's midfield deficiencies and need to support Keane. The 4 man midfield was liable to be matched or even out-played by half decent European teams given the players.

Another related point is that it's no longer as attractive for a top player to join utd as it was 5/6 yrs ago. They've gone from being the most dominant team in the EPL by a street to merely one of the top 4 and with much less potential for European success. Factor in that the youth players who have come through since the Beckham, Scholes batch have been relative failures at the top level and that the club is now owned by a billionaire who can't afford to spend big on players and the future for the club pales in comparison to that of current top European teams.

[therock67]

But the product is the hype now. If you want to follow the EPL you have to buy into the whole package because you have to watch it on Sky.

A while ago I had a debate with humbug regarding my choice to support Celtic over my local Eircom League team. I argued that 1. I don't have a local Eircom League team that I should have any sort of affinity to and 2. that history, tradition and politics combined meant that Celtic were a natural "fit" for me (to use marketing terminology). I don't understand how anyone can choose an EPL side to support though. I understand plenty of people do because they were brought up as fans (in my darkest days of youth I was known to sport a Liverpool jersey) but why can't people see that the emperor now has no clothes.

Re Ferguson - he has obviously failed spectacularly in the transfer market in recent times but I would suggest that there is more to it than that. He's buying big "proven" stars who aren't doing it for him because he's no longer able to get the best from very good players. I'm just wondering why he was so highly rated in the first place - Benitez for example is clearly a superior manager.

[eamo]

Start on the good points of your argument(s) Rock.

Smashing call on Ferguson. I have never rated the man or the manager. Why he did away with the 4-4-2 that won them the CL is anyone's guess. Schmeichel was an inspired signing, as was Keane (he thought 3.75m was too much at the time) and Irwin. Cantona was a fluke (a) he was shite - looked good in a shite league (b) he only got him becuse Leeds offered him to them. I think he had offered 4m for the might of David Hirst before that. Throw in Ferdinand, Veron, Forlan, Taibi, Silvestre, Blanc, Berg and he is shown for what he is. A poor judge of a player

My view of the EPL is that it has improved since those times, but moreover I think that the other leagues, particularly Serie A, has got worse. Liverpool beat Milan and Juve in last year's CL and Arsenal beat Juve this year. Middleboro beat Roma in the UEFA Cup.

I believe that La Liga is far and away the best league out there - you only had to watch Sevilla's hammering of Middlesboro and Barcelona's battering of Chelsea.

If you conside the other leagues, namely France and Germany, then I think that they pale in significance. With the exception of Bayern Munich, the clubs in these countries are primarily selling clubs. Look at Lyon the best team in France over the last 3 years - they sold Essien to Chelsea last year and probbaly Diarra to Real this year.

[therock67]

eamo said:

Start on the good points of your argument(s) Rock.

Smashing call on Ferguson. I have never rated the man or the manager. Why he did away with the 4-4-2 that won them the CL is anyone's guess. Schmeichel was an inspired signing, as was Keane (he thought 3.75m was too much at the time) and Irwin. Cantona was a fluke (a) he was shite - looked good in a shite league (b) he only got him becuse Leeds offered him to them. I think he had offered 4m for the might of David Hirst before that. Throw in Ferdinand, Veron, Forlan, Taibi, Silvestre, Blanc, Berg and he is shown for what he is. A poor judge of a player

My view of the EPL is that it has improved since those times, but moreover I think that the other leagues, particularly Serie A, has got worse. Liverpool beat Milan and Juve in last year's CL and Arsenal beat Juve this year. Middleboro beat Roma in the UEFA Cup.

I believe that La Liga is far and away the best league out there - you only had to watch Sevilla's hammering of Middlesboro and Barcelona's battering of Chelsea.

If you conside the other leagues, namely France and Germany, then I think that they pale in significance. With the exception of Bayern Munich, the clubs in these countries are primarily selling clubs. Look at Lyon the best team in France over the last 3 years - they sold Essien to Chelsea last year and probbaly Diarra to Real this year.

Christ we almost agree with eachother Eamo!

Standing by my Ferguson comments and glad to see you agree. The abandonment of 4-4-2 is ridiculous. I think he made such a point of stressing that 4-4-2 would bring them no success in Europe that he can't go back to it now.

It reminds me a bit of Liverpool's wing backs in the 90s: they became defined by the manager's formation and to change was to be seen as weak. When MON came to Celtic he was a wing backs man and it worked very well in Scotland - and still would because most teams are afraid to push their wingers on. To MON's credit once this got found out by the Huns (twice I think) and European sides (Porto away) he reverted to a 4-4-2. At least he was confident enough in his tactical ability to change once in a while.

Ferguson is still living off the CL triumph and his teams today couldn't be further removed from the team that won the CL for him. He has proven himself to be singulalrly incapable of purchasing a midfield enforcer over the years, with the exception of Keane though he asked him to play right back at the start. He has wasted a hell of a lot of money on overhyped, overpaid mediocrity and lost the ruthlessness he was once feared for.

(Also agree that Cantona was a lucky buy).

Where I think the EPL falls down is on technical and tactical ability, as evidenced by the success foreign coaches have in the league. There are some excellent individual players at the big clubs, and many of the smaller ones too, but the Sevilla game you highlighted was an excellent example of the gulf between an ordinary Spanish side and an ordinary English side.

I won't comment too much on the Bundesliga, except to say that the boy Klose looked alright in the world cup.

The French league isn't as strong as the EPL, it is a "selling league" as you point out, but Monaco a couple of years ago got to a final. More tellingly Lyon have looked a very good side for 4 the last 3 or 4 years. It's the very fact that Lyon, Monaco and Lille etc. can compete with Manchester United that illustrates how poor tactically the EPL is. There isn't a financial reason in this world why those clubs should be on a level playing field. They're close enough though.

Finally Serie A is obviously in disarray now. I do agree on its decline though. I was at a Milan derby last year (researching an article for tfk) and it was truly awful. Figo was head and shoulders above everyone else and he ran out of gas after about 20 minutes.

[therock67]

I take it all back about Ferguson. Just when you think he's lost the plot in the transfer market he captures England's world cup sensation Michael Carrick for a bargain £15m. Christ almighty what is the EPL coming to? I know some lads on here rate Carrick a bit but surely nobody thinks he is worth that kind of cash.

[steamboatsam]

Carrick's a decent player but for 15m you would expect someone world class, and that he is not. That kind of money for a player who isn't even a fooking regular international is outrageous, but a great bit of business by Spurs.

[iamthelaw]

steamboatsam said:

a great bit of business by Spurs.

I don't agree. If Spurs had sold him to (say) Real Madrid for £15m, fair enough, but Spurs finished 5th last year, they have to be looking at pushing for Champions League this year. One of their main rivals for that, Man U, had no central midfield. Spurs have just sold them exactly what they needed, and weakened themselves in that area at the same time. It's short-term gain but (I fear) long-term loss.

[tommymoore]

Conclusion #2: Ferguson isn't a great manager at all. He has struggled very badly tactically since the Champions League win - persisting with a lone striker up front in Europe when it has consistently failed to deliver.[/quote]

Ferguson isn't a great manager at all?? He's won something like 7 premiership titles, a european cup and numerous FA and Coca Cola Cups. If that doesn't classify him as great I don't know what does. Fair enough he's made a balls of it for the last few years and I think he should have retired when he was talking about it a few years back but his trophy haul speaks for itself.

[therock67]

iamthelaw said:

steamboatsam said:

a great bit of business by Spurs.

I don't agree. If Spurs had sold him to (say) Real Madrid for £15m, fair enough, but Spurs finished 5th last year, they have to be looking at pushing for Champions League this year. One of their main rivals for that, Man U, had no central midfield. Spurs have just sold them exactly what they needed, and weakened themselves in that area at the same time. It's short-term gain but (I fear) long-term loss.

Spurs already bought Zokora for £5.2m despite earlier interest from ManU and Arsenal. He looks quality and is definitely not only 1/3 as good as Carrick. They could also sign the likes of Petrov for £5m and get Gravesen on a shortish term deal for £2m. All these players are at least the equal of Carrick. They have forced their rivals to pay ridiculously over the odds for a mediocre player and will be laughing at Ferguson's panic in the market as he is too frightened to buy Juan Foreigner lest he get his fingers burned again.

[therock67]

tommymoore said:

Conclusion #2: Ferguson isn't a great manager at all. He has struggled very badly tactically since the Champions League win - persisting with a lone striker up front in Europe when it has consistently failed to deliver.

Ferguson isn't a great manager at all?? He's won something like 7 premiership titles, a european cup and numerous FA and Coca Cola Cups. If that doesn't classify him as great I don't know what does. Fair enough he's made a balls of it for the last few years and I think he should have retired when he was talking about it a few years back but his trophy haul speaks for itself.[/quote]

Ferguson has won 8 premiersip titles. That's a decent haul. For the most part his domestic rivals were Leeds and Blackburn. Since Arsenal and Chelsea have built up decent teams he has really struggled for trophies.

Ferguson was massively fortunate that his success coincided with massive injections of cash into the EPL. He had financial backing that completely overpowered all other in England until recently. In fact he had spending power to rank with any other team in Europe with the exception of Madrid.

He achieved domestic success as I have conceded but was that a good Leeds team or a good Blackburn team? Hardly. Liverpool were in a state. It took Arsenal's rejuvenation and latterly Chelseas's money to reinvigorate the EPL into anything other than a domestic stroll for the wealthiest club in the world^tm.

I cannot help but look at Europe and wonder would he have lasted as manager at a big club in another country with such paltry success. They haven't even threatened to win the competition in any season other than when they won it. Compare that with the likes of Hittzfeld who dominated Germany with Bayern Munich having already won the CL with a very average Dortmund team with little or no money. His Bayern team were a proper force in Europe and outlasted Man U most seasons.

Ferguson has been propped up onto a pedestal by the fawning English media but in truth I think the emperor is very skimpily dressed. He has been wasteful with money, he has been found out time and again in Europe adn he has capitulated when faced with proper domestic opposition.

I'm not going to address the FA or Coca Cola Cup statistics because frankly I couldn't give a shit how many of those he has won.

[therock67]

Smashing article on Ferguson in today's Guardian

Shredding his legacy at every turn

Sir Alex Ferguson's brilliance famously knocked Liverpool off their perch. Now his incompetence is doing the same to Manchester United. How did it come to this, wonders Rob Smyth

Monday July 31, 2006
Guardian Unlimited

It was John Cleese, in Clockwise, who said: "I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." Manchester United fans would beg to differ. Usually, the best thing about pre-season is the hope: reality's incisors have yet to pierce the gums of optimism, and fans can live off the balmy, often barmy belief that this is their year. For supporters of most of the other 91 English clubs, that's the mood right now. For United fans? Forget it. After three seasons of papering over the cracks, it seems most United fans are awaiting the moment that the fault lines tracing a veiny path across Old Trafford are exposed.

Almost everything about the club reeks of disarray. Owned by the Glazers, who push buttons from a remote hideaway like Dr Evil; run by a manager who shreds his legacy at every turn; almost exclusively represented by the inadequate (Darren Fletcher and Kieran Richardson) and the odious (Rio Ferdinand); unable to close a deal for West Brom's reserve keeper, never mind the new Roy Keane. The signing of Michael Carrick, a Pirlo when a Gattuso was needed, is a band aid for a bullet wound, and a ludicrously expensive one at that.
If anything, it's a surprise that United have bought anyone at all. This summer, they have been like a pathetic drunk lumbering across a dancefloor at 1.45am, trying to get off with everything that moves. No matter how many people they move in for - and if reports are to be believed, United have made offers for dozens of players - nobody wants to go near them. And the one person who surely would, Damien Duff, was allowed to slip into the arms of Newcastle for less than United paid for Patrice Evra. You couldn't make it up. You don't have to.

United finished second last season, but that said more about the deficiency of the Premiership than their own. Arsenal will not have a four-month blind spot this season, while all evidence suggests that Liverpool's gradient will continue on its upward trajectory. With Tottenham getting stronger, even with the loss of Carrick, it is entirely conceivable that, if they start slowly, United could finish fifth; in today's environment, that would be disastrous.

The problems are so obvious, so fundamental, as to be beggar belief that they have not been addressed. Just as the glory years of 1992 to 2001 will only fully be appreciated in 20 years' time, so will Ferguson's subsequent failure. It is particularly bewildering that a man who once exerted such an unyielding grip on every single aspect of the club that he had to be virtually coerced into delegating has let things slip to this extent. Take the Cristiano Ronaldo situation: Ferguson said recently that he had not even spoken to Ronaldo since the World Cup, a staggering dereliction of duty that is in total contrast to the us-against-the-world protection that he gave to David Beckham - and for which, for a time, he was so thrillingly rewarded - in 1998.

Once upon a time Ferguson could play 'who blinks first' with fate and win every time, his iron will shaping his destiny exactly as he wanted. Now he is reduced to uttering garbage like "it's like having a new signing" of Paul Scholes, Ole Solskjaer, Gabriel Heinze and Alan Smith, the irrational if-I-say-it-enough-it-might-happen gibberish you'd associate with a serial loser like Kevin Keegan. These days, the man they call The Hairdryer is full of nothing but hot air.

Ferguson's squad, once so taut, is a baggy mess of has-beens, never-will-bes and Liam Miller. The simple repetition of 4-4-2, of Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Beckham, Cole and Yorke, has given way to myriad tactical and personnel changes, to a ruinous obsession with utility players and tinkering. It's a truly appalling fact that, with Ruud van Nistelrooy gone, none of United's outfield players have played in only one position at the club. A nadir was reached in the FA Cup game at Wolves last season, when nearly £60m of defensive and attacking talent (Ferdinand and Wayne Rooney) was used in the centre of midfield.

It is an increasingly inescapable conclusion that, unwittingly or otherwise, Ferguson is winding down, a prizefighter who no longer has the stomach or the wit for an admittedly enormous challenge which, once upon a time, he would have fervently inhaled. Like he did with Liverpool. Ferguson's almost maniacal yearning to "knock Liverpool off their fucking perch" was arguably the single most important factor in United's 1990s renaissance. It makes it all the more vicious an irony that, 10 years later, he should knock United off the perch he had made for them through increasingly rank mismanagement.

Indeed, it must irk him beyond belief that United are making exactly the same mistakes that Liverpool did: lack of pheromones in the transfer market; laughable, fall-back signings at suspicious and ridiculous prices; deluded ramblings ("we are as good as Chelsea, no question") - and, worst of all, a dressing-room where playing the field seems as important as playing the game. Liverpool's Spice Boys were bad, but they have nothing on Merk Berks like Ferdinand, Richardson and Wes Brown.

Ferguson has taken this end-of-an-empire template and, incredibly, managed to develop it: he's added a sprawling, outsized squad chock-full of obscenely well-paid deadwood; insultingly obvious spin that a two-year-old could see through (the Van Nistelrooy saga); economy with the truth (Ferguson ridiculed a journalist for saying that Paul Scholes had been scouting for United; a few days later Scholes confirmed the story); a coaching set-up that had Wayne Rooney playing wide for a season and turned Ronaldo from the world's most thrilling off-the-wall talent into a run-of-the-mill winger.

Ferguson, an essentially honourable man, is partly suffering because of the impossibly high standards he set, and he carries the fatigued incomprehension of a man who is out of time. When he cites his favourite United team it is not the Treble-winners of 1999, but the Double-winners of 1994: Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Ince, Keane, Hughes, Cantona, Robson - a team that dripped masculinity, who bonded over blockbusting Saturday-night sessions, who embodied the old-school values to which Ferguson can relate. Real men. The gentrification generation - sarong-wearing, pink champagne-swigging metrosexuals - are entirely beyond his comprehension. He could handle one, David Beckham, for a time before eventually giving up on him. Now he has a pack of them, for whom the hairdryer means only one thing - a trip to Toni & Guy. It is a different world. Ferguson probably doesn't even know what 'merk' means.

Everywhere, principles are being sacrificed. In years gone by Ferdinand - who for all his irrefutable ability is the type of character whose presence in a United shirt symbolises everything that has gone wrong with the club - would've been out the door faster than Paul Ince could say 'big-time Charlie', but now Ferguson can't afford to lose his only world-class defender. In years gone by he wouldn't have considered signing someone like Patrick Vieira, on grounds of age or character, but now he is left looking for someone, anyone, to appease the fans. In years gone by he would never have given a game to someone like John O'Shea, whose sole use is to put the podge in a hodgepodge midfield. In years gone by, he would never have sanctioned the mediocre football that, except for a few giddy weeks in the spring of 2003, United have played ever since Carlos Queiroz arrived in 2002 masquerading gobbledygook as continental sophistication.

And the thing is, it is only going to get worse: Liverpool, Arsenal and Tottenham have all made shrewd, cheap signings and are on an upward trajectory. United are going the other way: they are hugely dependent on Ferdinand and Rooney, but no amount of Carling Cup medals is going to sate their ambition. Then there is the Glazer factor, the full, inevitable horror of which is only just beginning to emerge. United fans think this season is going to be bad. It hasn't even started.

[timofte]

Very good read that Rock. Fergy has lost the plot over the last few seasons imo and from the article below it would seem he was just as arrogant in the '80s. (Its pretty long but a good read if you get the chance)

The Sunday Times July 30, 2006

Why Fergie abuse left me paranoid

In this exclusive extract from his autobiography, Gordon Strachan explains for the first time how his relationship with Alex Ferguson disintegrated at Old Trafford after their early triumphs at Aberdeen


Most people assume that my experience of working with Sir Alex Ferguson for nine years — at Aberdeen from 1978 to 1984 and at Manchester United from 1986 to 1989 — was the making of me. They are right, up to a point. Until his arrival at Aberdeen, my career was going nowhere. In the early days he was the manager who gave me the strongest platform for my ability, with the standard of the team he built at Aberdeen and his discipline and organisation. His confrontational methods helped me to develop my mental strength. If I could handle Fergie, then as a player or manager I felt I could handle almost anything.
However, I would only single him out as having had the greatest influence on me in relation to one aspect of my career. As for the other parts — notably when I was more experienced and thus more receptive to a less controlling and dictatorial form of management — I owe just as much (if not more) to men such as Ron Atkinson, who preceded Fergie at United, and Howard Wilkinson, my manager at Leeds.



As much as I admire Fergie for what he has achieved, I have to admit that this is offset by the memories of the deterioration in our relationship. As indicated by his comments about our time together in his 1999 autobiography Managing My Life, it would seem that Fergie is not too enamoured with me either. Those comments, which related mainly to my desire to leave Aberdeen and Manchester United, and included Fergie stating that I “could not be trusted an inch”, surprised and disappointed me. I know I made one or two mistakes in my dealings with him, but I feel there were mitigating circumstances. In any event, I would have thought that the service I gave him at Aberdeen and the numerous great moments we shared would have counted for more in his eyes than what he said about me in his book seemed to suggest.

Many will have found it more surprising that despite the publicity given to Fergie’s views about me, I have always kept a public silence on them. I have preferred to try to retain a sense of dignity and not give the media scope to turn the matter into a full-blown controversy. Nevertheless, I have always felt deep down that it would be good for me one day to give my side of the story. In doing so now, I have no wish to score any points off Fergie. I just want to put the record straight.



I DO not think anybody needs to be reminded about Fergie’s autocratic, abrasive style of management. In the light of the ways in which he likes to control his players and, of course, the ferocity of those renowned “hairdryer” verbal tirades — with the person on the receiving end looking as if he is standing in a wind tunnel — many might find it strange that the response from his teams has been so stunning. But Fergie came to the fore in an era when players were in a weaker position — financially and contractually — than they are now and managers could virtually hold them to ransom. Since then, Fergie has also been helped by the remarkable stature he has achieved through winning so many trophies. He has become so powerful and influential that if you fall out with him, you wonder if you’ll work again.

While his explosive public persona might occasionally suggest otherwise, nobody should doubt that Fergie is an exceptionally astute manager. In recent years more and more clubs have called in sports psychologists to help them get the best out of their players; I have worked with some of them myself. Yet I often say that, for all their specialist training and knowledge, I cannot believe they can do a better job of motivating professional footballers than Fergie. He is the game’s motivational master.

Because of Fergie’s confrontational manner in his dealings with his players, it was not unusual for collective dressing room anger or resentment to be directed at him. I am not sure to what extent, if any, this situation might have been engineered by him, but one thing I am pretty certain about is that at Aberdeen the atmosphere at any party attended by Fergie and his first-team squad would not have been very relaxed. At least half of the players would not have wanted to talk to him; and I dare say some would have been itching to rip his head off. As a manager, you would have to be a tough cookie indeed to function in that sort of atmosphere.

In my experience of him, Fergie is not really one for dealing with players in ways best suited to their individual temperaments and personalities. He has a very fixed idea of the sort of characters he is looking for. In a sense, he looks for carbon copies of himself. So all his players get the same treatment, and if an individual cannot handle it, so be it; he is quickly discarded.

He is a man who thrives on conflict. It is no coincidence that the vast majority of the players who established themselves under his management at Aberdeen were strong enough characters to stand up to him when the need arose. Willie Miller, his captain, might have seemed a quiet, unobtrusive figure, but this was misleading. He had no compunction about going into battle against Fergie, not just for himself but on behalf of his teammates.

On one occasion a half-time row between Willie and Fergie over the manager’s comments about some of the other players led to Willie taking off his jersey and telling him: “You can stick this up your backside.” As Willie stormed off into the bath area, we made a joke of it with comments like: “Hey, Willie, do you want some shampoo?” and “Hang on a minute, Willie, we’ll be joining you soon.” Fergie had to leave him out for the second half.

I was self-motivated as a player, partly because I did not go into any match thinking that I was a better player than the man I was facing. At the same time, I recognise that I am the sort of person who usually benefits — in the competitive football sense — from being in a bad or angry mood. So, at the outset, you could argue that Fergie was the perfect manager for me, even though being regarded as one of his most influential players seemed to bring me more stick from him than most of the others received. To an extent, picking on me was his way of emphasising to other players that reputations did not matter to him.

Those trademark Fergie hairdryer tirades have long been a favourite topic of conversation among those who have worked for him. Among my personal favourites was his post-match rant at the former England winger Peter Barnes at Manchester United — or rather the lengths to which Peter went to get out of Fergie’s firing line. Peter, anticipating that Fergie was going to have a go at him — he had been substituted near the end — headed straight for the dressing room after being taken off and hid himself.

The first question Fergie asked when he came into the dressing room was: “Where’s that Barnes?” “He must be in the bath, boss,” someone replied.

Fergie looked from the entrance to the bath area and could not see him. “Not there, the bastard,” he said. This clearly upset him even more, and for the next quarter of an hour or so he got it out of his system by letting rip at other players. Finally he went out of the room, and as the players were discussing his conduct — “He’s a bloody maniac”, etc — Peter suddenly appeared with towels around his waist and head, water dripping down his face.

He had been in the bath, but the reason Fergie could not see him was that he had been hiding under the water.

It was very rare for Fergie to say sorry. During those nine years of working with him, there were countless Fergie bullets aimed at me; I can recall only one time he put his hand up and admitted he had gone over the top. That was after a Manchester United-Aston Villa match, in which he lambasted me for giving the ball away on the halfway line, a mistake that led to Villa scoring. The next Monday he asked to have a “quiet word” with me, and said: “Sorry about that on Saturday — I went over the top.” Generally, however, his favourite line was: “The day I stop reacting like that is the day you need to worry. It is for your own good.”

One of the problems in my relationship with him was that the longer we worked together, the more I needed him to adopt a different attitude and approach with me. I needed him to treat me as an adult, not a kid; to have some respect for the fact that I was an experienced professional to whom abuse from the manager had become more of a motivational turn-off than a stimulus. I needed him to appreciate that my penchant for having a laugh and a joke, which he might have interpreted as a sign that I did not take my career seriously enough, was misleading.

Not long after he joined me at Manchester United and took up from where he had left off with me at Aberdeen, I remember telling him: “Listen, you spoke to me like that nine years ago. It might have worked well then, but it is not going to work now.” But the screaming and shouting did not cease — it just got worse and more personal.

The reason it did so at Aberdeen concerned my decision to leave when my last contract there expired at the end of the 1983-84 season. I thought it was the right time for me to go for many reasons. Apart from the lack of any real challenges left for me in Scottish football, I felt I was justified in seeking a move for financial reasons. Money has never been the be-all and end-all for me. At the same time, as I was a married man with a family, I do not think anybody could call me greedy for wanting to exploit my earning potential a bit more. My gross annual income in my best years at Pittodrie was £30,000-£35,000. Not bad for Scotland, but far below what the leading players were earning in England. Contrast this with the offers I received from the two clubs that wanted to sign me from Aberdeen. Cologne were willing to pay a basic starting salary of £64,000, Manchester United £70,000.

In those days the trend of Scottish footballers moving to England was a sore point with Fergie. He appeared to interpret it as those players having somehow sold out — it seemed to offend his socialist principles. He could get particularly touchy about it when noting the trappings of wealth and fame some of those players displayed on their visits back to Scotland to join up with the national squad. In my case, his behaviour made me think that he looked on my decision to leave Aberdeen as a personal slight. At team meetings he would say: “Where do you think you’re going? Who would want a crap player like you?” Against this background I panicked and elected to take matters into my own hands by signing a provisional agreement to join Cologne just before the end of the season. The pre-contract agreement was instigated and brokered by the German agent Bernt Killat, and I was honestly under the impression that it would not be binding if I eventually decided not to work in Germany. “Look, there is only six weeks to go before the end of your (Aberdeen) contract,” Bernt reminded me. “What happens if you do not sign (for Cologne) and between now and the end of the season, you break a leg? You have to do something.”

In his book, Fergie wrote that he knew nothing about the deal, and that, as it coincided with the successful culmination of his transfer fee negotiations over my move to Manchester United, he was “stunned” when he heard about it. He said: “Though I always felt there was a cunning streak in Strachan, I had never imagined that he could pull such a stroke on me.”

Fergie’s point about being in the dark on my dealings with Cologne, through Killat, surprised me. True, I did not discuss the matter with him or anybody else in the Aberdeen hierarchy, but no manager had his ear closer to the ground than Fergie, and I did wonder if Killat might have mentioned it to him. Killat was well known to Aberdeen, as the organiser of some club tours to Germany, and he and Fergie seemed to have a good relationship. Basically, my feelings about Fergie’s comments are that it works both ways. It boils down to the fact that because of his attitude to me, I did not trust him either.



IN NOVEMBER 1986 he joined me at Old Trafford. It was a great move for him and Manchester United, but not, as it turned out, a great move for me. I had loved playing for Ron Atkinson at United. After being beaten with a big stick for so long at Aberdeen, it was refreshing to have a manager who trusted and appreciated me, and treated me as an adult. When Fergie moved to United, I had to endure the big stick again.

In some ways I could understand that. As a newcomer to English football, he needed to impose his authority on the Manchester United dressing room quickly, to show everyone what was in store for them if they stepped out of line; and what better way to achieve that than through his dealings with me? Fergie wrote that when he arrived at Old Trafford I bore little resemblance to the player he remembered at Pittodrie. “There was little evidence of the zest and cocky assurance that characterised his play in Scotland,” he said. “Verbally, he was as assertive as ever, with an acid wit that was often used in criticism of his teammates. But in matches, he appeared to be diminished by living in the shadow of the likes of (Bryan) Robson, (Norman) Whiteside and (Paul) McGrath.”

This observation will have come as a surprise to Atkinson, because even with Robson, Whiteside and McGrath in his team from the start of my United career, he still singled me out as his best player in my first season. I felt I was on fire, not just in that first season but in my first 18 months at United. I probably played the best football of my career over that period. In my last season at United, 1988-89, although I did not make a bad start, it was difficult for me to avoid the thought that I was living on borrowed time, especially when it became clear that the FA Cup was the only competition United had a realistic chance of winning. I knew I was not playing as well as I could and that once the cup run was over, I would be on my way out.

That’s the way it turned out, with the end of my United career marked by the 1-0 FA Cup quarter-final defeat by Nottingham Forest in March. Fergie was highly critical of my performance against Forest’s left-back, Stuart Pearce. He said: “Strachan, to me, was like a trialist who had found himself completely out of his depth. He seemed to be intimidated by Pearce.” Not one of my greatest matches, but whether my performance merited Fergie’s description of it was another matter. The next day he was knocking on my front door to tell me he no longer wanted me at United and that the club had agreed a deal for me with Leeds.

I am not one to keep mementos of my career, but among the few still in my possession is the letter of congratulations that Fergie wrote to me after Leeds won the Second Division in 1990. It was a nice gesture, and he even suggested that he might have made a mistake in allowing me to leave United when I did. Knowing Fergie as I do, I would imagine that he felt less kindly towards me when Leeds pipped Manchester United for the old First Division in 1992.

It says much about the tension in our relationship, however, that even as a manager I have found it difficult to discount the possibility of Fergie taking a particular interest in putting one over on me. The results that condemned Coventry to relegation, on the penultimate weekend of the 2000-01 season, were our defeat at Aston Villa and the surprise 1-0 win by Derby — also in dire relegation trouble — at Manchester United. Derby’s success was not as difficult to explain as it might seem, because United had already retained the Premiership title and cannot have been expected to be as charged up as they would have been in normal circumstances. Fergie did not select what was considered to be his strongest team for that match — which, again, is hardly unusual for a manager in his position. Even so, given his belief that I let him down as a player, I have always viewed United’s approach to the match against Derby with a degree of paranoia.

It is sad that our relationship has come to this. One day it would be great to sit down with him and have a proper chat about our clashes, to bring our relationship closer to what it was like in its most harmonious periods.

[lyonsee]

Interesting reads the above two articles. While I tend to agree that things have changed at United, I would point out that they did finish second last season. I certainly can't see them finishing fifth this season and still reckon they're stronger than Arsenal. While the fee for Carrick was ridiculous, it's my opinion that in signing him they have strengthened their midfield. While a midfield trio of Smith (whom I have to say I like as a midfielder), Carrick and Scholes is no Alonso, Sissoko, Gerrard, it certainly isn't that bad.

Arsenal are threadbare imo and have lost a couple of big influential players in Campbell and Bergkamp. Rosicky's a good signing but not good enough I'd venture, to prevent Arsenal from finishing fourth at best. Hopefully Reyes will fook off back to Spain too as he's disappointed me for long enough. Cole has said he won't play for them again and Pires won't be contributing 10-15 goals this season either. Leaves them rather bare down the left don't ya think. Not convinced by Senderos either tbh. Wenger's tenure is nearly up I'd say.

Liverpool have the same problem as last season - strikers. We've only two - Fowler and Crouch (don't really count Bellamy as a striker), and a third and fourth should be priority. I maintain that if Fowler plays 38 EPL games next season he'll return 15-20 goals but I just don't thin Rafa has that kind of faith in him. Excited by the pace that has been added to the squad in Bellamy and Gonzalez. Am more curious about how Pennant does than excited by the prospect. Palletta/Agger will hopefully get runouts regularly this season as a long term successor to Hyypia is required. I think the fact that Mourinho has come out and said that United/Arsenal are the main challengers to Chelsea's throne says it all. Liverpool are. Having said that I reckon Chelsea will walk it. (Nice to see that Gallas is off though). Sheva will be amazing - 30 goals expected from him.

My predictions:
1. Chelsea - 10 points ahead of
2. Liverpool - 6 points ahead of
3. Man Utd - 1 point ahead of
4. Spurs - 1 point ahead of
5. Arsenal

[hen14]

Lyonsee, as the great Liam Brady (or at least an impersonator of the great man) would say, you're talking through your hoooop! Arsenal have lost the huge influence of Campbell and Bergkamp. How many games did these two play last year? Campbell's form was of such concern that he had to take a month off in the middle of the season and possibly cost Arsenal more points than he won them!! Bergkamp was a bit part player last season (true legend and I'm sure an influence in the dressing room) but he only chipped in with three goals last season! I'm sure this can be replaced. Pires was also a bit part player last season (hence his decision to move on as he wasn't guaranteed regular football). His usual 10-15 goals became 7 goals last season and he wasn't the influence that was expected. His time had come. Wenger has already got ready made replacements for each of these players as follows:-

Campbell - Phillippe Senderos - Shaky start to last season, had a break and recuperated and came back to play a huge role in Arsenal going 11 games without conceding a goal in the Champions League. His partnership with Kolo Toure is crucial this season. Also, you say you're not convinced by a 20 year old who was the mainstay of the only defence in this year's world cup not to concede a goal??? Tough man to convince!!

Ashley Cole - that little git can fook off! Clichy has what it takes to replace him and Arsenal can buy if necessary! Regardless, just to have him out of the squad has to be positive! It's harsh the way the club hung him out to dry after meeting Chelsea behind their back! The little money grabbing cnut can fook right off! Also, remember Flamini in the Champions League?

Bergkamp - it's time for Robin van Persie to stand up. Very talented footballer with pace and vision and can be the perfect foil for Henry. Quality up until December last season (including a player of the month trophy in October) whan an injury kept him out for two months. Couldn't get back into the side after that due to the form of Henry and Adebayor. Also, was quite impressive in the world cup.

Robert Pires - Tomas Rosicky is a great signing for the club and an absolute steal at the reported £7m fee (Dortmund reportedly paid £18m for him). Has been regarded as a quality player thoroughout Europe for the past c. 5-6 years loved at Dortmund, dubbed the Little Mozart in Prague (not for his love of music but the beauty of his footballing ability) and will fit perfectly into Arsenal's midfield. I would imagine an adequate replacement.

Throw in along with this Jens Lehmann, Kolo Toure (underrated defender who, in my opinion, was Arsenal's best and most consistent performer last season - incredibly missed when he went to the African Nations Cup in January), Gilberto (whose performances in the Champions League were immense), Fabregas (don't think I need to say anything about this kid - handed Vieira's No. 4 for this season), and, Henry.

Wenger being at the end of his tenure?? You taking the hit and miss?? The football that Wenger has this team playing, the team spirit, the new stadium, the young talent he has brought through and an appearance in the Champions League Final last season! There's a lot more to be seen from this team and why not this season?

Chelsea may still be the ones to beat but Arsenal are as good if not better than any of the other challengers (and certainly far better than Spurs).

[lyonsee]

Let's not forget they only finished fourth last season. Granted they played some fantastic football and had a great CL run but I can't see them being consistent enough in the EPL

Would've thought that van Persie might take Pires position and Rosicky Bergkamp's but I'm assuming you're an Arsenal fan and would know better than me.

Senderos is always likely to make a mistake imo, and if either him or Toure get injured the only option is Cygan. Hardly reassuring.

Agreed re Cole - what a money-grabbing prick.

[bandage]

Just took Dinamo Zagreb at 7/2 to beat Arsenal tonight. Anyone else find it completely baffling that Henry isn't in the squad as he only returned to training 7 days ago? A) He was playing competitively for France only a couple of weeks previously and can't be that unfit, B) After all the ooohing and aaahing over whether he would stay or not, the one constant was that Arsenal being in the Champions League was crucial to his decision. If he loves the club as much as he says he should have come back earlier to ensure he'd be available for selection, C) Wenger should have made him come back in time for a critical game like this.

It actually smacks of arrogance and I'd love to see them get Artmedia Bratislavad. That's probably why I've irrationally bet on Dinamo.

[hen14]

Why waste Henry's time when you're that good without him?!?!

[bandage]

Rock, I request that you set thefreekick up for one of the EPL fantasy football leagues as suggested by wow a while back. We can do the metro one (like we did for the World Cup) or there’s an official premier league one too. Can’t remember the address though. I’ll be selecting a competitive squad over the weekend.

[steamboatsam]

fantasy.premierleague.com/

this is the official one

[therock67]

WoW has done some research on a few alternative sites so I'll be setting one up at the weekend - I can't look at any of them in work.

[hen14]

I can imagine Steamboat will print out reams and reams of stats on players to study for the weekend before submitting his team! Like he does annually for the Eurovision!!

[steamboatsam]

hen14 said:

I can imagine Steamboat will print out reams and reams of stats on players to study for the weekend before submitting his team! Like he does annually for the Eurovision!!

when did i submit a team for the eurovision?

[hen14]

You're one of Brian Kennedy's TEAM aren't you?!?!?

[bandage]

steamboatsam said:

hen14 said:

I can imagine Steamboat will print out reams and reams of stats on players to study for the weekend before submitting his team! Like he does annually for the Eurovision!!

when did i submit a team for the eurovision?

Well your sisters represented Finland this year.