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Post by iamthelaw on Jun 7, 2006 9:31:42 GMT
Since Bandage mentions it in the Martin O'Neill thread, I just wanted to gauge the opinion of the cricket community on the forum as to whether Ed Joyce playing for England is a Good or Bad Thing.
Personally I would feel it is a Bad Thing. Not that I would condemn Joyce himself for seizing the opportunity, but surely cricket as a whole would be better served by having cricket becoming stronger in Ireland, rather than have Ireland become a feeder county for England?
In rugby terms, I feel one could draw a parallel with New Zealand poaching all the best rugby talent from the South Seas to further their cause; who knows how strong those islands might have been had they had Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Lomu, Michael Jones and Frank Bunce at the peak of their powers, instead of which they played (or sat on the bench) for the All Blacks.
So what do the cricket fans think? Should one be proud of Joyce being good enough to play for England? Or should the rules be changed to reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening again?
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Post by whyohwhy on Jun 7, 2006 9:35:06 GMT
Since Bandage mentions it in the Martin O'Neill thread, I just wanted to gauge the opinion of the cricket community on the forum as to whether Ed Joyce playing for England is a Good or Bad Thing. Personally I would feel it is a Bad Thing. Not that I would condemn Joyce himself for seizing the opportunity, but surely cricket as a whole would be better served by having cricket becoming stronger in Ireland, rather than have Ireland become a feeder county for England? In rugby terms, I feel one could draw a parallel with New Zealand poaching all the best rugby talent from the South Seas to further their cause; who knows how strong those islands might have been had they had Sivivatu, Rokocoko, Lomu, Michael Jones and Frank Bunce at the peak of their powers, instead of which they played (or sat on the bench) for the All Blacks. So what do the cricket fans think? Should one be proud of Joyce being good enough to play for England? Or should the rules be changed to reduce the risk of this sort of thing happening again? Since you state twice, that you want the opinion of cricket fans on this board, do you not think you are limiting yourself re replies |
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Post by iamthelaw on Jun 7, 2006 9:37:50 GMT
Since you state twice, that you want the opinion of cricket fans on this board, do you not think you are limiting yourself re replies Fair enough, obviously all opinions welcome, but personally I'll be particularly interested to hear the opinions of those closest to the issues. |
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Post by therock67 on Jun 7, 2006 9:55:13 GMT
I'm certainly not close to any issues and have an extremely limited knowledge of cricket but I like watching the game and feel compelled to voice my opinion.
Cricket has test nations and non-test nations. It is harsh on Ed Joyce to expect that he would continue playing for a non-test nation like Ireland which would severely limit his chances of playing at the highest level. He plays in England every week so it is natural that he'd be inclined towards representing England and Wales, given the opportunity.
There are massive problems with the nationality ruling in cricket. What about a world class cricketer from Canada? Who should he represent? Why is it ok for Ed Joyce to represent England? Would there be a problem if he decided he wanted to play for Australia? There are too many test players at the moment choosing their test nation on the basis of chances of selection (Pietersen unforgivably making the move to England and Wales because of the quota ruling in South Africa - the quotas in South Africa must be frustrating for the top players at times, but Christ it's a small price to pay for turning around a society that white people destroyed and where cricket as an institution had a huge part to play - anyway that's a separate issue).
If I was on the board of the ICC I'd propose something along the lines of rugby league - you have your test nations and your one day nations. So your one day world cup takes place next year and Joyce represents Ireland. However because the guy is good enough he can also play in the Great Britain and Ireland test team (the name is irrelevant for the moment because the RL team keep changing their name from GB to GB&I to the Lions etc.). That way you have a proper two-tier structure which facilitates the development of cricket outside the top nations.
There should also be provisions for a team to qualify from one day international status to test status every four years or so. The best one day international team in the world cup could be granted temporary test status for four years and be allowed to tour and play the bigger nations. How else can one expect to improve the standard of cricket in Ireland etc?
As regards Joyce himself I can understand his decision but I do think he was in a position to influence the governance of the sport. He just accepted the fact that England are better than Ireland so switched allegiances. No cooling-off period or anything just a straight swap. That's not good enough and makes a mockery of the sport IMO.
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Post by preshy on Jun 7, 2006 9:58:00 GMT
Myself, i think it's a good idea, as i don't think Irish cricket is going to be anything to the standard to English cricket, it's a chance to play against the best teams and players in the world, and even.......beat them.
You could play for Ireland who struggle to beat county sides? and you'd be playing on a team primarily made up of internationals?You wouldn't see that on any other side....
Eventhough Ed Joyce playing for Ireland would certainly put Ireland on the cricket map, i feel we're not in the best position to start building ourselves up and comparing ourselves to other teams, as we're not in any way up to the standard of them,well not just yet. So my point being-why hold Ed Joyce back from doing what he does best, he's obviously the same standard as some of the best out there, and we're making him play for a very developing irish cricket side.
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Post by therock67 on Jun 7, 2006 10:12:44 GMT
Myself, i think it's a good idea, as i don't think Irish cricket is going to be anything to the standard to English cricket, it's a chance to play against the best teams and players in the world, and even.......beat them. You could play for Ireland who struggle to beat county sides? and you'd be playing on a team primarily made up of internationals?You wouldn't see that on any other side.... Eventhough Ed Joyce playing for Ireland would certainly put Ireland on the cricket map, i feel we're not in the best position to start building ourselves up and comparing ourselves to other teams, as we're not in any way up to the standard of them,well not just yet. So my point being-why hold Ed Joyce back from doing what he does best, he's obviously the same standard as some of the best out there, and we're making him play for a very developing irish cricket side. Fair enough preshy but how can Ireland ever improve if the best players all leave for England? Do you think he should be allowed play test cricket for England and one day cricket for Ireland? |
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Post by whyohwhy on Jun 7, 2006 10:17:08 GMT
Fooking Judas. Up there with fooking Kieran Bracken.
At least Bracken got a stamping or two for his trouble, as per Nick Popplewells autobiography.
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Post by bandage on Jun 7, 2006 10:59:02 GMT
I think it’s wonderful for Irish cricket that Joyce might soon become an English and Welsh test match cricketer.
If you break it down the positives far outweigh the negatives imo. Ireland do not have test playing status and are not going to assume it in the lifetime of Joyce’s career. Fact. Therefore, I do not have any difficulty in Ed seeking to test (excuse the pun) himself at the very highest level. Indeed it was a privilege to be present for possibly his last ever innings for Ireland against Scotland in the ICC Trophy Final last July in Clontarf. Why should Joyce be penalised for his undoubted quality by depriving himself of the opportunity to play test match cricket? I have nothing whatsoever against him personally for following a career path towards representing England Wales.
Ok, that’s the personal positives for Ed in declaring for England and Wales. What about the wider impact on cricket in Ireland? I think it’s a case of whether you think Irish cricket would be better served by having Ed continue to play championship cricket for Middlesex and be released for a handful of Irish games every season or whether more benefit would be derived from Joyce potentially batting for England and Wales in an Ashes series. I think there is only one winner here. In fairness with Ireland not being in a position to play test match cricket the height of our playing ambitions have possibly already been achieved in reaching the World Cup with Joyce playing a full part in this. The next step is to drive an interest in the game going forward into the long term so that the next generation of Joyces are not lost to rugby, soccer, GAA and other sports.
It appears obvious to me that the promotional aspect of the game in Ireland would be best served by one of our own playing in the pressure cooker situation of an Ashes test. Allow me to dream if you will – an Ed Joyce match winning century in the second innings of the final and deciding Ashes test in Sydney next January will do more for cricket in Ireland than anything he could ever achieve in an Ireland shirt. It would be all over the news in Ireland for days and would inspire children to pick up a bat. At the end of the day one day international cricket is akin to playing around in pyjamas – test match cricket is the be all and end all. An test playing Ed Joyce will be the boost the ICU needs in their continuing attempts to entice youngsters to the game. I don’t see how Ed playing against Namibia the other week in front of me, Cully a man and a dog would have benefited the game in Ireland. As Ed continues his upward progression abroad he is the icon for all youngsters playing cricket in Ireland – he is their role model and he is proof you can make a living out of the game at the highest level and hopefully on the world stage. If anything Ed playing for England and Wales will do more to help the prospects of Ireland eventually obtaining test match status rather than having an adverse effect on our prospects. More power to him.
Haven't had time to read any other posts on this by the way - this came from my heart.
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Post by therock67 on Jun 7, 2006 11:14:15 GMT
I think it’s wonderful for Irish cricket that Joyce might soon become an English and Welsh test match cricketer. If you break it down the positives far outweigh the negatives imo. Ireland do not have test playing status and are not going to assume it in the lifetime of Joyce’s career. Fact. Therefore, I do not have any difficulty in Ed seeking to test (excuse the pun) himself at the very highest level. Indeed it was a privilege to be present for possibly his last ever innings for Ireland against Scotland in the ICC Trophy Final last July in Clontarf. Why should Joyce be penalised for his undoubted quality by depriving himself of the opportunity to play test match cricket? I have nothing whatsoever against him personally for following a career path towards representing England Wales. Ok, that’s the personal positives for Ed in declaring for England and Wales. What about the wider impact on cricket in Ireland? I think it’s a case of whether you think Irish cricket would be better served by having Ed continue to play championship cricket for Middlesex and be released for a handful of Irish games every season or whether more benefit would be derived from Joyce potentially batting for England and Wales in an Ashes series. I think there is only one winner here. In fairness with Ireland not being in a position to play test match cricket the height of our playing ambitions have possibly already been achieved in reaching the World Cup with Joyce playing a full part in this. The next step is to drive an interest in the game going forward into the long term so that the next generation of Joyces are not lost to rugby, soccer, GAA and other sports. It appears obvious to me that the promotional aspect of the game in Ireland would be best served by one of our own playing in the pressure cooker situation of an Ashes test. Allow me to dream if you will – an Ed Joyce match winning century in the second innings of the final and deciding Ashes test in Sydney next January will do more for cricket in Ireland than anything he could ever achieve in an Ireland shirt. It would be all over the news in Ireland for days and would inspire children to pick up a bat. At the end of the day one day international cricket is akin to playing around in pyjamas – test match cricket is the be all and end all. An test playing Ed Joyce will be the boost the ICU needs in their continuing attempts to entice youngsters to the game. I don’t see how Ed playing against Namibia the other week in front of me, Cully a man and a dog would have benefited the game in Ireland. As Ed continues his upward progression abroad he is the icon for all youngsters playing cricket in Ireland – he is their role model and he is proof you can make a living out of the game at the highest level and hopefully on the world stage. If anything Ed playing for England and Wales will do more to help the prospects of Ireland eventually obtaining test match status rather than having an adverse effect on our prospects. More power to him. Haven't had time to read any other posts on this by the way - this came from my heart. I appreciate the fact that you hadn't read my post yet but if and when you do can you address the following: - Do you think it would be beneficial to cricket in Ireland if Joyce were to represent Ireland in one day internationals and England and Wales in test cricket (as is allowed and encouraged in rugby league) - Do you think English cricket players in general make a mockery of nationality rulings? (Strauss, KP etc.) - What team do you think a world class cricketer from the Netherlands or Canada should be allowed to represent? - Do you think it is right that Ed Joyce could play for Ireland in the qualifiers for the World Cup and England in the finals themselves? - Do you think it is right that Ed Joyce could play for Ireland right up until the week before the World Cup and switch allegiances then for the tournament if he felt like it? - Do you think there might be more than you, Cully, a man and a dog at these one day internationals if our best players were compelled to play for us? - Do you think there is a fundamental problem with the structure of world cricket when there are no possibilities for non-test nations to develop? |
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Post by bandage on Jun 7, 2006 11:58:48 GMT
To answer your questions in sequence:
- Yes it would obviously be a win-win situation were Ed able to play in ODIs for Ireland and tests for E&W but the current ICC laws preclude this from happening.
- I wouldn't say English cricket players in general make a mockery of the rulings. The players you mention qualified based on the 4 year residency criteria as set down in the ICC regulations.
- A world class cricketer from one of those countries, if he is good enough, can follow Ed's path and sign for a county and qualify through residency to play for E&W. Equally if he is considered good enough state teams in South Africa, Australia etc afford any player the opportunity to play at a high level, cut his teeth and then qualify for residency.
- I think it is a strange loophole that allowed Ed to qualify for the WC with Ireland and then be available for selection for England in the tournament. I'm not complaining though because we would have been fooked without him in the qualifiers.
- Is it correct to say he can switch only a week before? I'm not sure he can - I will check the ICC website, maybe you can enlighten me.
- Ed Joyce is only one player - we also had Eoin Morgan of Middlesex playing and still there was a pitiful attendance. My contention is that the profile of the game, and by default attendances also, will be raised if our players were performing at the highest level. The fact we don't have a test team doesn't allow this.
- I disagree with the statement that there are no possibilities for non-test nations to develop. Amongst the relatively recent countries to assume test status are Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Kenya are apparently next in line based on their ODI improvements over the last number of years and their 4 day performances in competitions such as the Intercontinental Cup.
The ODI Ireland are playing against England next week is the first ever ODI we've been involved in that's had official ODI status. Previously our 50 over games against countries that were touring England were classified merely as tour games. Achieving this recognition is the first step on what is likely to be a 15-20 year status towards test status if we achieve it at all. Remember Kenya have competed in the last number of World Cups and they still are not a test side. It is my belief that the further developmental prospects of the game in Ireland are better served by us having a home grown player playing on the highest test match stage. You appear to believe he should stay with Ireland and soldier on playing for us to help raise the profile of the game. I don't think Ed needs to be a martyr here by appealing agianst the ICC regulations as they stand. I think he will be doing a massive service to the game in this country if he plays in a test match for England and Wales.
I should say myself and another forum member nearly came to blows on this topic outside The Village in February. A fellow forum member dragged us apart.........if only Ed knew........it's like The Civil War all over again.
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Post by whyohwhy on Jun 7, 2006 12:41:10 GMT
it's like The Civil War all over again. Civil War for the three cricket fans on this site |
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Post by therock67 on Jun 7, 2006 13:33:35 GMT
To answer your questions in sequence: - Yes it would obviously be a win-win situation were Ed able to play in ODIs for Ireland and tests for E&W but the current ICC laws preclude this from happening. Do you agree then that the rules/structure would be better served by a change and the ICU should be actively campaigning for such a change. - I wouldn't say English cricket players in general make a mockery of the rulings. The players you mention qualified based on the 4 year residency criteria as set down in the ICC regulations. Do you feel then that the rules need changing? There is a small pool of test nations as it is. When a guy decides to play for one over the other simply because of the quota rule in South Africa then the law is an ass. - A world class cricketer from one of those countries, if he is good enough, can follow Ed's path and sign for a county and qualify through residency to play for E&W. Equally if he is considered good enough state teams in South Africa, Australia etc afford any player the opportunity to play at a high level, cut his teeth and then qualify for residency. Is that good for the development of the sport where the best players don't represent their own countries because they are too good for them? I have no problems with the Dutch lad plying his trade in England professionally, but to remove him from the Dutch international setup is wrong. - I think it is a strange loophole that allowed Ed to qualify for the WC with Ireland and then be available for selection for England in the tournament. I'm not complaining though because we would have been fooked without him in the qualifiers. Again it makes a laughing stock of the rules of international cricket. The boundaries between nationalities are paper thin and the ICC need to establish proper criteria for determining eligibility for tournaments. Joyce should be forbidden from representing anyone other than Ireland at the world cup. - Is it correct to say he can switch only a week before? I'm not sure he can - I will check the ICC website, maybe you can enlighten me. Once he served the residency in England he qualifies to play for them whenever he wants. He doesn't need to act on it straight away and could continue representing Ireland now if he wished. There is no "cooling off period" between playing for two countries. - Ed Joyce is only one player - we also had Eoin Morgan of Middlesex playing and still there was a pitiful attendance. My contention is that the profile of the game, and by default attendances also, will be raised if our players were performing at the highest level. The fact we don't have a test team doesn't allow this. But the attendances won't get to see these guys playing "at the highest level" because they've turned their back on Ireland - I disagree with the statement that there are no possibilities for non-test nations to develop. Amongst the relatively recent countries to assume test status are Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Kenya are apparently next in line based on their ODI improvements over the last number of years and their 4 day performances in competitions such as the Intercontinental Cup. Zimbabwe were granted test status in 1992 - 14 years ago. They have recently withdrawn from the test arena have they not? Also you say "amongst the recent countries..." - what are the other countries that you didn't mention or did you in fact give us the full list? I'd be interested to know how many Bangladeshi cricketers played for other nations while they were striving for test status? The ODI Ireland are playing against England next week is the first ever ODI we've been involved in that's had official ODI status. Previously our 50 over games against countries that were touring England were classified merely as tour games. Achieving this recognition is the first step on what is likely to be a 15-20 year status towards test status if we achieve it at all. Remember Kenya have competed in the last number of World Cups and they still are not a test side. It is my belief that the further developmental prospects of the game in Ireland are better served by us having a home grown player playing on the highest test match stage. You appear to believe he should stay with Ireland and soldier on playing for us to help raise the profile of the game. I don't think Ed needs to be a martyr here by appealing agianst the ICC regulations as they stand. I think he will be doing a massive service to the game in this country if he plays in a test match for England and Wales. Here I disagree as you know. We have improved as a cricket nation of late apparently, but this improvement coincided with the availability of our best players - a situtation which is changing now. I should say myself and another forum member nearly came to blows on this topic outside The Village in February. A fellow forum member dragged us apart.........if only Ed knew........it's like The Civil War all over again. Who was the wuss who didn't want to see a fight? |
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Post by bandage on Jun 7, 2006 14:17:44 GMT
Always mess up with the sequenced quotes like you have done so again I'll reply one-by-one:
In terms of not wanting to have witnessed Ed play his last game on these shores in the medium term and to give the game in Ireland a short term boost it would appear better were he available to play in both codes but I prefer the system as it is now rather than having diluted international competition whereby you play ODIs for one country and tests for another. I recall the farce when a load of English rubgy league players represented Ireland in the World Cup going back a few years and then went back to playing for Great Britain come the test series against Australia. It included the likes of Tommy Martyn, Terry O'Connor and others and in reality I can't see the benefit it brought to the sport in this country in the long run.
You have picked one example, Kevin Pietersen, and concluded the law is an ass. Most sports have similar residency rules. For example Deco playing with Portugal, numerous rugby players all around the globe etc. If the law in cricket is an ass then so are the laws in all these other sports. Maybe the reason driving his decision to leave South Africa is controversial but I can't see how the residency qualification rule is. Are you distinguishing between the two?
A cricketer can still represent his country of birth should he so desire. Ed was playing for Ireland up to this time last year. You are not factoring in the whole ODI/test differential - it is not simply a case of a player saying he's too good for his country. The fact that there is a stringent entry system into test match cricket means that certain players from certain countries will not have the opportunity to play in test matches unless they qualify for another country. Are you annoyed at Joyce or the regulators? I already stated why I think Joyce playing for E&W would be better for the development of the game in Ireland rather him than taking on Namibia in an empty Castle Avenue.
I agree that Joyce helping Ireland qualify and then being available for selection for England is an anomaly. However, had the law been different I don't think it would have had an impact on Ed's decision to qualify for England and Wales. His ultimate ambition has always been to play test match cricket - the World Cup is secondary, and always will be, to test match cricket and the Ashes series in particular.
Re the 'cooling off' period; from chatting to Adie Birrell a few weeks back it doesn't appear to be that simple. I'm not saying you're wrong here but are you sure you're right? I've been checking the ICC website to no avail on this.
Attendances were not very slick when Ed was playing for Ireland either. Morgan is the next big hope but are people out watching him? No. My point is that Ed playing for E&W will drive interest in the game, more kids will play the sport, the ICU will continue to develop their strategic plan and so on and so on until such time that we may have youngsters playing test matches for Ireland in 30 years time. I believe Joyce is a figurehead for the sport in Ireland and were he to play at test level he'd undoubtedly be the launchpad for the further development of the game in the country. Then perhaps large attendances will be watching the Irish team, comprised of the best Irish born players, taking on the other test playing nations in Dublin and Belfast.
The two most recent entries are Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. As you know Zimbabwe's recent problems are political and not sporting. I have no idea how many Bangladeshi's played with other countries while the country was striving for test status but they do have a number of Pakistani born players in their side. As far as I recall the previous test match entrant prior to these two was Sri Lanka. The fact that so few teams have assumed test status in the last 20 years emphasises what folly it would be for Joyce to turn aside the chance to play at the highest level. It's akin to an Irish football player turning down the opportunity to play in La Liga because he wants to stay at home until the Eircom League sides are competing for the Champions League.
Your second last point is a point of disagreement - I don't think either of us will change their minds.
Steamboatsam and myself were up for a few boxes but that elusive forum member, Hen14, put a stop to it. A few bemused onlookers must have wondered whether those two guys were really trying to box each other because of Ed Joyce's decision to declare for England and Wales.
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Post by bandage on Jun 7, 2006 15:27:29 GMT
From the ICU website:
Ireland have named a squad of 12 for the Vodafone One Day International against England at Stormont on Tuesday, June 13.
The game, Ireland’s first official ODI, has attracted unprecedented interest, and is destined to be the biggest event in the history of Irish cricket.
The game is a virtual sell out, with only a very limited amount of tickets remaining to be sold. England, the current Ashes holders, are the only Test nation that Ireland have never played, and there is great public interest in this prestigious fixture.
The Irish squad, who are sponsored by Bank of Ireland, include the majority of the players who have successfully qualified for the 2007 ICC World Cup, which is being staged in the West Indies.
Tom Hayes, Chief Executive, Bank of Ireland Corporate Banking, commented “Bank of Ireland is delighted to be associated with the Irish Cricket team as they prepare for a historic and exciting challenge on June 13 against England. We wish both teams the best of luck.”
The squad in full is as follows:
Trent Johnston, captain (Clontarf)
Andre Botha (North County)
Jeremy Bray (Eglinton)
Peter Gillespie (Strabane)
Dominick Joyce (Merrion)
David Langford-Smith (Phoenix)
Kyle Mc Callan (Waringstown)
John Mooney (North County)
Paul Mooney (North County)
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex)
Kevin O’Brien (Railway Union)
Andrew White (Northants)
Niall O’Brien will also join the squad if released by Kent.
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Post by cully on Jun 7, 2006 17:53:44 GMT
I agree with what much of what bandage has said. Rock, you have a major gripe with the system, and in part i can see where you are coming from. for ed to help us qualify for the world cup and then be in a position to play against us is a bit ridiculous. but i'm going to put that aside, start another thread on the regulations if you wish to pursue it.
law, there is not a direct correlation between the all blacks pillaging of islanders and the joyce situation. ireland are not a test playing nation, thus ed can not hope to play in the five day purest form of the game, in the case of the pacific islands and their players, they all have the opportunity to play in a test match for their country of birth. the fact that there's no money there and that they'd be more successful with the all blacks is the matter in that instance.
for ed to represent england in a test would be fantastic. it would put irish cricket on the map. yes, i would still like to see a situation whereby he could play ODIs for Ireland but tests for england (based on the fact that we are not test playing) and i disagree with bandage that this would muddy the waters like it did for the rugby league, that was a farce from the beginning.
ed's success in england has definitely opened avenues for irish cricketers, the counties are now looking towards ireland as a source of good young cricketers and we have more and more guys going over on trials and playing in the county structure.
personally i believe that we will never get test status in our lifetime. the main reason why bangladesh were fast tracked was purely commercial, they have a large cricket playing and viewing population and this was seen by the money grabbing ICC as an opportunity to make some cash, (i hope the ICC choke on it for what they've done to the game in recent years-but that's for another thread). We simply don't have the resources financially, it may come and i hope it does but i can't realistically see it happening some time soon. the recent immagration of asians into ireland is a fantastic coup for us and it was great to see a school side from lucan entering a side, this shows that the game is growing. but test status will have to wait.
for those of you who don't know ed toured the west indies with the england A squad during the winter and did well enough to be included in the squad of elite players from which the test side will be selected from this summer, it is a squad of 25 or so. ed is not far off from attaining his goal, and when he does, i'll be there cheering him on. Watch out for eoin morgan, known the kid since he was 8 and at that age he was ridiculously good, hopefully he'll break into the middlesex team this year and go from there. shame that the middlesex top order is one of the best around but he's that good.
both bandage and i will be in attendance for the historic game on tuesday, it promises to be a special day.
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Post by therock67 on Jun 8, 2006 11:41:47 GMT
Cully I've been through this rugby Vs cricket nationalities discussion with you before but I will repeat my points here for those who aren't aware of them:
1. Of the players named by Iamthelaw as being poached by the All Blacks:
- Sivivatu moved to New Zealand when he was 17 or so to go to school there.
- Rockocoko moved to New Zealand with his family when he was 5
- Lomu was born and bred in Auckland
- Michael Jones was born and bred in Auckland
- I'm not sure about Frank Bunce
In other words none of these players came to New Zealand as fully fledged rugby internationals (or anything like it). Jones had one cap for Samoa (but that was through the parentage rule). This is not comparable to Kevin Pietersen or Ed Joyce deciding to swich allegiances from the country of their birth.
2. New Zealanders of Pacific Island descent make up about 7% of the population of New Zealand. They are represented in every facet of New Zealand society (including politics) so it is only natural that they would be prevalent in the rugby team.
3. There are another 7% or so New Zealanders of east Asian origin who don't tend to play rugby so Pacific Islanders make up a large portion of the rugby playing population and are represented as such on the team.
So most of these guys are representing the country of their birth, the others represent the country their family emigrated to. There is a perception out there that these lads are 21 or 22 and moving to New Zealand for professional contracts. There are fellows doing that and good luck to them. Invariably they represent the countries of their birth.
Off to lunch now but I'm not finished criticising cricket.
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Post by bandage on Jun 8, 2006 12:28:19 GMT
I knew you wouldn't let this one go! I never directly compared cricketers like Ed to the NZ rugby team. When I mentioned residency and rugby I was actually thinking more of the raft of New Zealanders playing for Scotland in the past few years, not a great rugby supporter but off hand can think of Metcalfe, the Leslie brothers and there was more. They've that Dan Parks guy who's Australian (I think) playing now. Wales also had a lot of Southern Hemisphere players at one stage. Cully can answer the NZ examples you quote - I don't really know enough about it!
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Post by therock67 on Jun 8, 2006 12:36:08 GMT
I'm certainly not goint to defend the kiwis playing in Scotland and Wales but that's the converse of the problem we discussed. What I'm talking about is the myth that New Zealand are poaching the best young players from the Pacific Islands which is patently untrue. It's an excuse we use in the Northern Hemisphere to justify our inferiority. In reality there is far more wrong with Joyce playing for England (no ancestral or familial ties - he only lives there for sport) than with the islanders who moved to New Zealand for socioeconomic reasons.
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Post by therock67 on Jun 8, 2006 15:44:20 GMT
Right back to the cricket for a moment:
In sports such as soccer and rugby union there is a wealth of guys who don't believe they are good enough to play for their native country so they declare for a weaker nation on the grounds of ancestry or residence. This is a fact of sport and an exploitation of rules that will never cease. The key here is that in general you are talking about guys who aren't good enough stepping down a level to gain representation.
What is far more dangerous is when a sport tolerates guys picking and choosing their teams because a) their adopted country is better or b) they don't like the politics of sport in their homeland. This is why people get outraged at the All Blacks for fielding Pacific Islanders, when in reality they are just selecting economic migrants, not sporting mercenaries.
Cricket needs to address the issue of nationality sooner rather than later. I understand that bandage and cully love the game so they are reluctant to criticise it, especially the test arena. However just because change might be seen as unlikely that is not a good enough reason to accept the status quo IMO.
Ed Joyce has zero ties with England, other than his sporting profession. Even Paul Butler had more of a reason to play for Ireland in soccer and I was vehemently opposed to his selection - not because he wasn't good enough (which he wasn't) but because he had no claims to Irishness other than marriage. When you have diluted into international test playing franchises you will know where it all went wrong. Develop the weaker countries, don't write them off because they're not good enough.
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Post by therock67 on Jun 16, 2006 8:31:07 GMT
Dislocated his ankle in the Twenty20 last night.
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Post by whyohwhy on Jun 16, 2006 8:41:20 GMT
Dislocated his ankle in the Twenty20 last night. Karma |
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Post by bandage on Jun 16, 2006 12:40:43 GMT
Gutted for Ed. It's not dislocated - just a very bad sprain that will keep him out for anything between 2 and 6 weeks. If he'd scored runs in the ODIs then that would have put him in the shake up for the Pakistan test series and the Ashes. If he can get fit asap then hopefully he'll get a chance against Pakistan as England and Wales' batting line up hasn't been firing lately.
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pagey
Joe Brolly
Posts: 102
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Post by pagey on Jun 16, 2006 14:08:22 GMT
I think it is an utter disgrace that he has changed over to play for England&Wales. Could he not just play test games for E&W?
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Post by cully on Jun 20, 2006 23:14:13 GMT
pagey, that's a problem for the international governing body. i'd agree with you in part but it'd make a mockery of the sport if one week he plays for EandW in a test and then potentially could play for ireland in an ODI versus england.
injury could not have come at a worse time for him. the englandandwales one day team are awful and need a balanced accumulator of runs. i like bandage's optimism but i do think that at test level he's behing cook and shah. runs at odi would do his cause no harm though and would earn him a place on the plane to the ashes or at least to the world cup next year.
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