County nicknames

[iamthelaw]

tommymoore's reference to Tipp being the 'Premier' intrigued me, and have been even more interested to discover how difficult it is to find explanations for a number of county nicknames. Some are clear enough (the Orchard county, the Lilywhites) but here's what I've found on some of the others:

• To start with Tipp being known as the Premier, a few sources refer to a speech by Thomas Davis, where he said " Where Tipperary leads , Ireland follows". Wikipedia gives a different & unique explanation but the contributions of at least one forum member to Wikipedia has shaken my faith in that site.
  
  
• Have been listening to Offaly fans proudly boasting today of being the Faithful county, but some sources suggest that this means faithful to the crown, following on from their previous title of King's county. But the Offaly GAA site refers to the then Leinster Council Secretary Martin O'Neill over 60 years ago proclaiming Offaly "The Faithful County" (www.offaly.gaa.ie). You pay your money.
  
  
• Kerry as "the Kingdom" appears to derive uncontroversially from the fact that it was once the Kingdom of Ciar, son of Fergus McRoy, King of Ulster, by Meave, the famous Queen of Connaught, in the 1st century (http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlker/history.html); something similar to Meath being known as the Royals.
  
  
• But the most interesting one I've found so far is Cork as "the Rebels". A reasonably reliable source (www.corkcity.ie) reveals that this wasn't due initially to republican activities, but rather for their support of the losing English side against the other after the Wars of the Roses. Apparently, "in the aftermath of the Wars of the Roses, Yorkist pretenders to the English crown (worn victoriously by the Lancastrian Henry Tudor, Henry VII since 1485) won support in various parts of Ireland, with one interesting and curious consequence for Cork. Waterford resisted both Lambert Simnel (1488) and Perkin Warbeck (1491) and for its loyalty was dubbed the urbs intacta, the untouched city. Cork however took a different line and earned a quite different, and eventually a more famous, sobriquet. Warbeck was supported by Mayor John Water and the citizens. A price was paid in the temporary forfeiture of its charter and the execution of Water, along with Warbeck himself, in London in 1499. And so the famous description, 'rebel Cork', was originally applied by the crown as a derogatory designation but seems to have been adopted by the citizens as a badge of pride."
  
  

All corrections/additions welcome.

[whyohwhy]

iamthelaw said:

:

• But the most interesting one I've found so far is Cork as "the Rebels". A reasonably reliable source (www.corkcity.ie) reveals that this wasn't due initially to republican activities, but rather for their support of the losing English side against the other after the Wars of the Roses. Apparently, "in the aftermath of the Wars of the Roses, Yorkist pretenders to the English crown (worn victoriously by the Lancastrian Henry Tudor, Henry VII since 1485) won support in various parts of Ireland, with one interesting and curious consequence for Cork. Waterford resisted both Lambert Simnel (1488) and Perkin Warbeck (1491) and for its loyalty was dubbed the urbs intacta, the untouched city. Cork however took a different line and earned a quite different, and eventually a more famous, sobriquet. Warbeck was supported by Mayor John Water and the citizens. A price was paid in the temporary forfeiture of its charter and the execution of Water, along with Warbeck himself, in London in 1499. And so the famous description, 'rebel Cork', was originally applied by the crown as a derogatory designation but seems to have been adopted by the citizens as a badge of pride."
  
  

All corrections/additions welcome.

Cork! All they do is shoot people in the back!!!

[briantinnion]

Wexford is known as the model county, I don't think this needs much explanation, all you have to do is have a look at some of its citizens.

[iamthelaw]

briantinnion said:

Wexford is known as the model county, I don't think this needs much explanation, all you have to do is have a look at some of its citizens.

Seriously though, I'm open to correction but that pretty much is the most likely reason I've found, i.e. they are the "model county" for the example they set the rest of the country in 1798. It seems more likely than the website I found saying it was due to the example they set the rest of the country with their "tidy and industrious farms"

[stickywithoutjam]

briantinnion said:

Wexford is known as the model county, I don't think this needs much explanation, all you have to do is have a look at some of its citizens.

No offence briantinman, I have seen some of the "models" of Wexford in their natural habitat of Abrakebabra, ain't much to please the eye.

Re the model country reference, if the Wexfordicans didn't drink cider that faithful day, Vinegar Hill would of been held, instead we get Ibiza uncovered with 30 lads & pitchforks.

What gets me about the Cork ones right, is the "ourselves alone" psychology. After Saipan, printing presses in this county were knocking out t-shirts with pictures of Keane & Collins, with the solemn accusation (to paraphrase) "Both Cork legends: Both shot in the back", or something to that effect.

To put the record straight, Cork turned its back on Collins i.e. the Munster Republic was in open defiance of Collins Government. Secondly, Collins was shot in Cork. Thirdly, Collins was most likely shot by a Corkman, (although there is numerous historic tomes on this issue, we will never really know). Fourthly, Collins was shot in the head not the back, to be pedantic. So to suggest otherwise Corconians is outrageous-lets not even dwell on the complete lack of equivalence between Roy Keane and Michael Collins..neither issue is anywhere in the same league.

[iamthelaw]

stickywithoutjam said:

To put the record straight, Cork turned its back on Collins i.e. the Munster Republic was in open defiance of Collins Government.

Much as I enjoy knocking Cork, what do you mean by this sticky?

In the general election of 1923 (the first real vote on the treaty, following the uncontested election of 1921 & the pact of 1922), I understand that the four Cork constituencies returned 6 pro-treaty & 4 anti-treaty candidates, almost exactly in line with the result for the country as a whole (63 pro & 44 anti-treaty); hardly consistent with Cork turning its back on Collins I would have thought?

The fact that Cork was held for a period by anti-Treaty forces does not prove that Cork itself was anti-Treaty, no more than the fact that anti-Treaty forces held the Four Courts proved that the lawyers working there were anti-Treaty.

[whyohwhy]

stickywithoutjam said:

To put the record straight, Cork turned its back on Collins i.e. the Munster Republic was in open defiance of Collins Government. Secondly, Collins was shot in Cork. Thirdly, Collins was most likely shot by a Corkman, (although there is numerous historic tomes on this issue, we will never really know). Fourthly, Collins was shot in the head not the back, to be pedantic. So to suggest otherwise Corconians is outrageous-lets not even dwell on the complete lack of equivalence between Roy Keane and Michael Collins..neither issue is anywhere in the same league.

But thats why they shot him and why other munster people regularly respond to 'Up The Rebels' shouts with 'What Did Ye Rebel Against?' and 'The Only Rebel Ye Had, Ye Shot Him In The Back'.

Peoples Republic of Cork, My arse!

[whyohwhy]

iamthelaw said:

Wikipedia gives a different & unique explanation but the contributions of at least one forum member to Wikipedia has shaken my faith in that site.

What was that?

[stickywithoutjam]

iamthelaw said:

stickywithoutjam said:

To put the record straight, Cork turned its back on Collins i.e. the Munster Republic was in open defiance of Collins Government.

Much as I enjoy knocking Cork, what do you mean by this sticky?

In the general election of 1923 (the first real vote on the treaty, following the uncontested election of 1921 & the pact of 1922), I understand that the four Cork constituencies returned 6 pro-treaty & 4 anti-treaty candidates, almost exactly in line with the result for the country as a whole (63 pro & 44 anti-treaty); hardly consistent with Cork turning its back on Collins I would have thought?

The fact that Cork was held for a period by anti-Treaty forces does not prove that Cork itself was anti-Treaty, no more than the fact that anti-Treaty forces held the Four Courts proved that the lawyers working there were anti-Treaty.

Ah, yer splitting hairs iamlegalaid!!

I am not turning things on a penny here or splitting atoms. Recitation of electoral results doesn't equate with Collins/Keane t-shirts.

[iamthelaw]

whyohwhy said:

iamthelaw said:

Wikipedia gives a different & unique explanation but the contributions of at least one forum member to Wikipedia has shaken my faith in that site.

What was that?

Actually, Sligo's self-designation as "Yeats County" is one that really annoys me. Yeats' family lived in Dublin 4, he was born and raised there and in London, and then spent much of his later years in Thoor Ballylee in Galway. Writing about Sligo doesn't mean he was from there, any more than it makes U.S. citizens of The Thrills, nor does being buried there, any more than it makes of Jim Morrison a Frenchman.

[steamboatsam]

iamthelaw said:

briantinnion said:

Wexford is known as the model county, I don't think this needs much explanation, all you have to do is have a look at some of its citizens.

Seriously though, I'm open to correction but that pretty much is the most likely reason I've found, i.e. they are the "model county" for the example they set the rest of the country in 1798. It seems more likely than the website I found saying it was due to the example they set the rest of the country with their "tidy and industrious farms"

Traditionally Wexford has been economically successful and prosperous. This prosperity was built on the basis of an efficient and thriving agricultural sector and on a significant industrial base, particularly in Wexford Town. Overall Wexford's position as the "Model County" stems from this prosperity. It actually bears no relation to events of 1798.

[iamthelaw]

stickywithoutjam said:

iamthelaw said:

Much as I enjoy knocking Cork, what do you mean by this sticky?

In the general election of 1923 (the first real vote on the treaty, following the uncontested election of 1921 & the pact of 1922), I understand that the four Cork constituencies returned 6 pro-treaty & 4 anti-treaty candidates, almost exactly in line with the result for the country as a whole (63 pro & 44 anti-treaty); hardly consistent with Cork turning its back on Collins I would have thought?

The fact that Cork was held for a period by anti-Treaty forces does not prove that Cork itself was anti-Treaty, no more than the fact that anti-Treaty forces held the Four Courts proved that the lawyers working there were anti-Treaty.

Ah, yer splitting hairs iamlegalaid!!

I am not turning things on a penny here or splitting atoms. Recitation of electoral results doesn't equate with Collins/Keane t-shirts.

No, I'm not saying it does, but Collins' appearance on the t-shirt is based on the fact he was born in Cork (I won't mention where for rock's sake after Saturday).

I was just hoping you had some actual facts on which to base your conclusion that Cork were anti-Collins. Indeed I'm still hoping.

[stickywithoutjam]

iamthelaw said:

whyohwhy said:

What was that?

Actually, Sligo's self-designation as "Yeats County" is one that really annoys me. Yeats' family lived in Dublin 4, he was born and raised there and in London, and then spent much of his later years in Thoor Ballylee in Galway. Writing about Sligo doesn't mean he was from there, any more than it makes U.S. citizens of The Thrills, nor does being buried there, any more than it makes of Jim Morrison a Frenchman.

Lets leave Sligo out of this. Concerning the numerous other issues this civic community must face including , air traffic control & airport opening hours, corner shops and days of the week, these Sligonads have a lot to face up to.

[iamthelaw]

steamboatsam said:

iamthelaw said:

Seriously though, I'm open to correction but that pretty much is the most likely reason I've found, i.e. they are the "model county" for the example they set the rest of the country in 1798. It seems more likely than the website I found saying it was due to the example they set the rest of the country with their "tidy and industrious farms"

Traditionally Wexford has been economically successful and prosperous. This prosperity was built on the basis of an efficient and thriving agricultural sector and on a significant industrial base, particularly in Wexford Town. Overall Wexford's position as the "Model County" stems from this prosperity. It actually bears no relation to events of 1798.

excellent, for increasing my knowledge I exalt you

[therock67]

iamthelaw said:

No, I'm not saying it does, but Collins' appearance on the t-shirt is based on the fact he was born in Cork (I won't mention where for rock's sake after Saturday).

You don't have to go soft on me - in fact I'm half west Cork anyway so I can claim allegiances to both sides.

[stickywithoutjam]

Iamlegalaid- Facts are irrelevant, (refer to winkipedophile on anything.)

Just like the English FA and Mike Bassett, I trust a man on his gut instinct before those Professors up in city hall in their white coats with university degrees and cafe mochas and fancy double-barreled wives names.

[bandage]

Wexford are the 'Rebel County' - Cork are pretenders. We are also known as the 'Model County' due to our brooding good looks and collective changeable mood on the hurling and football pitch, much like a difficult supermodel, and this leads to shocking inconsistency in our performances.

[stickywithoutjam]

Yee also get shafted as often as a New York Catwalk model!