Thoughts on WC2006 so far....

[pagey]

His parents didn't name him Kaka, his real name is Ricardo. I hope you don't think that Pele is his real name!!!

[bandage]

Can't remember what Pope did due to drink related reasons. The first two were definite reds - was unsure of the second one seeing it live but seeing the replay confirmed what a disgraceful tackle it was.

Was incredibly impressed by Spain last night. Great analysis by Souness (he's been very good imo) the way he explained how they never swayed from their game plan - they just kept passing and probing and their class shone through in the end. A fellow forum member can confirm that after 55 mins I boldly predicted a 3-1 Spain victory - I was even that impressed with them at 1-0 down. Special mention to the coach who I didn't think had the balls to use his bench like that and also to Fabregas who was superb and Torres who kept going even when things weren't going his way. Themselves and Argentina are far away the most impressive teams so far.

[steamboatsam]

The strength of Spain's squad was in evidence aswell, bringing on Fabregas and Joaquin who both made a big impact, Fabregas in particular and i reckon he'll have to start the next day. Good to see Raul getting a goal aswell but i'd hope that he'll continue to be used as an impact sub. Pernia could be a weakness at left back but still glad i backed them to win it outright. Last night was evidence that they're a much different side to the chokers of previous tournaments

[bandage]

Eamo is offline but has contacted me via portable telephone to get me to post the following:

‘My earlier comments on Miroslav Klose were rash in the extreme and he has sufficiently proven himself at this WC. However I still believe my bet with rock is safe as houses.’

I have a Klose/Germany double too and I disagree with Eamo there. Only Argentina and Spain have impressed more than Germany so far imo and with the home support whipping up more of a frenzy with each passing game I think they’ll be tough to stop.

[therock67]

Did he actually contact you to post that? Fair play to him if he did. Miroslav Klose is a legend and himself at 100/1 and Crespo at 40/1 doubled with their respective nations are looking like cracking bets.

More pleased for Klose though. He's an excellent striker and delighted to see him proving himself in another world cup.

[timofte]

Germany are running riot here. 3-0 btw. Think this one could end up 5 or 6 nil.

[bandage]

Yeah he text me there - he's missing thefreekick.

[iamthelaw]

pagey said:

His parents didn't name him Kaka, his real name is Ricardo. I hope you don't think that Pele is his real name!!!

Just pointing out that their names aren't all cool.
As for all the guys called Junior, or "-inho".

Pele was cooler than Edson alright though.

[bandage]

Cracking article from Valdano in The Guardian re the 20th anniversary of 'The Hand of God'

Twenty years ago today the hand of God smote England

Jorge Valdano
Thursday June 22, 2006
The Guardian


My entire qualification for writing this column is that on that day, at that time, I was there. And I must say that I was bored stiff because we couldn't get a grip on the match. When we wanted to play fast we were inaccurate, when we wanted to be accurate we were tedious. Eleven functionaries on each side trying not to make a mistake.
On a day like that nobody expects a visit from history, but in that office full of bureaucrats there was one crazy man capable of anything. A crazy Argentinian, to boot. It is important to consider the nature of that person because, from that day on, Maradona and Argentina became synonymous. We are talking about a country with a clearly extravagant relationship with football, a country which made a deity of a footballer with a decidedly extravagant relationship with football. And that afternoon, which began so boringly, Maradona made extravagant through football and through Argentinian character.

Divine intervention
It all began with a long slalom, which was Maradona's natural way of running with a ball. Just before he reached the area, he found only opposition legs in his way and, seeing no way forward, knocked the ball up to me and looked for the return.

The problem I had playing with Diego as a team-mate was that he turned you into a spectator and, when he passed you the ball, it took a moment to remember that you were like him - a footballer. Well, perhaps not like him, but a footballer none the less.

The fact is that when I woke up, I shook a leg to try to play the one-two but did it so unskilfully that the ball was knocked forward by my marker. Looking at it in perspective, it was a smart move on my part because if I had touched it Maradona would have been offside. The fact is that nobody recognised my singular contribution, partly because I fell to the ground so clumsily that it embarrasses me to remember.

Fortunately, the eyes of the people were not on me. Because from the ground myself, and the rest of the world, from wherever they were, saw that ball rise in slow motion and then begin to come down on the edge of the six-yard box where Peter Shilton and Maradona went to challenge for it in the air. There something happened which I couldn't understand but which was called a goal and had to be celebrated as wildly as such an unpleasant match, a World Cup, England deserved. Maradona ran and celebrated without much conviction, as if his cry contained a doubt within. Strange goal, strange cry - I still didn't understand much until I got to the huddle and found out why.

From my position I suspected that Diego could not have reached up there with his head but at no point did I see his hand, nor God's. Any ethical scruples? Twenty years on we can have them, but at that moment we only felt joy, relief, perhaps a forced sense of justice. It was England, let's not forget, and the Malvinas were fresh in the memory.

In the days before the game I said that we had "a good opportunity to confound the idiots" but that was just playing the intellectual. When emotions come into the equation, nearly all of us are idiots. Also we shouldn't forget that we were Argentinians, representatives of a country that rationalises with the word "exuberance" what in other places is called cheating.

The other goal

The office was now turned upside down but the crazy man had only just begun. Shortly afterwards he received a very difficult ball in the middle of the pitch with his back to goal. He turned, took off and got into a series of tight scrapes from which he escaped perfectly.

I was accompanying him level with the far post as if I were a television camera tracking him. Diego assures me that he meant to pass to me several times but there was always some obstacle that forced him to change plans. Just as well. I was dazzled and I thought it was impossible (it still seems that way to me) that in the middle of all those problems he would have had me in mind.

If he had passed me the ball as it seems Plan A called for, I would have grabbed it in my hand and applauded. Can you imagine? But let's not deceive ourselves, I am convinced that Diego was never going to release that ball. Throughout those 10 seconds and 10 touches, he changed his mind hundreds of times because that's how the mind of genius in action works.

That celebration that put intelligence, the body and the ball in tune was an act of genius - but also in the most profound way, in footballing terms, of being Argentinian. What Maradona was doing was making Argentinians' football dream a reality: we love the ball more than the game and, for that reason, the dribble more than the pass.

When the ball went into the net I knew, in that instant, we were present at a moment of great significance: Maradona had just put on Pele's crown. Aware of the historical moment in which I was living, I did something that humanity has still not recognised. I, ladies and gentlemen, took the ball out of the net where Maradona had put it. The focus, fortunately, was still elsewhere. In fact, 20 years on, the ball keeps going into the net time and again in the memories of those who love football . . . and there was me thinking I'd taken it out.

[therock67]

You bastard I had just copied and pasted that and was about to click post when I saw it here.

[timofte]

Its got to be the worst game of football I have seen in the world cup so far. Ukraine have no interest in looking to go forward and win the game, even with Tunisia down to 10 men! Shevchenko dives in the box and gets a penalty for it! 1 nil to Ukraine with 15 minutes to go. At least it keeps my bet for the day alive.

Very dissapointed with some of the last games in the group stages. Some teams are just content to get a draw. There hasn't been too many games that have meant much so far. Good finish to Australia game last night and Brazil game was entertaining enough.

Roll on the knock-out stages.

DT

[iamthelaw]

Argentina-Mexico was good, but after today's games I wished all 4 teams had lost so I wouldn't have to watch them again. At least there's Wimbledon, Tri-Nations and of course the Gaelic to look forward to if the footie can't pick up. Only 12 games left & I don't have high expectations for tomorrow. Italy should have too much for Australia (come on Oz, prove me wrong) & who can get excited about Switzerland-Ukraine. Except the Swiss & the Ukrainians. Actually probably not the Swiss.

[timofte]

Just watched the Australian Italy game there. Feel sorry for the Oz to lose to a penaly with the last kick of the game. Thought the pen was a bit harsh but you see them given alot. Def worth extra time.

Its a shame the refs are ruining so many games right now. Portugal v Holland game was a sham.

The english now think that they are going to win the world cup!They think portugal don't have a chance. I cant wait for them to stuff England. Was watching the ITV coverage earlier and Townsend to be fair was being fairly critical of England. All the rest of them didn't care about the performances and said its the result that counts. I think these guys honestly believe that England can go on and win the world cup even though they have been playing terrible and have had a handy draw against weak apponents. They will get found out soon me hopes.

Also they all think that Svens change of formation helped them win the game the other night. Do they not recall that it was a set piece that won them that game! Nothing to do with the formation. Bloody (English) rose tinted glasses on the lot of them. I know the RTE team are fairly anti-England but if the Irish were playing as bad in a world cup Eamon and the boys would be tearing strips out of them and predicting the opponents to win.

Whats wrong with a traditional 4-4-2 formation for England? All this talk of a holding midfielder. Its not like they are leaking goals all over the place. Also I notice a good few long balls being played up to Rooney the other day, none of which he was able to get. They say no more long ball yet they continue it when Crouch is on the bench! Sven is a complete waste of space. I think its time for the english media to cop on a take a reality check.

DT

[iamthelaw]

timofte said:

I think its time for the english media to cop on a take a reality check.

Absolutely: Sunday Times at the weekend said of England "It's just like watching Brazil". What are they like?

timofte said:

Just watched the Australian Italy game there. Feel sorry for the Oz to lose to a penaly with the last kick of the game. Thought the pen was a bit harsh but you see them given alot. Def worth extra time.

Its a shame the refs are ruining so many games right now. Portugal v Holland game was a sham.

Felt sorry for Oz too, wouldn't blame the ref for giving the peno but it was a pity it was just so late. Still, they'd had a 1-man advantage for 40 minutes & failed to make it count. And I'd rather see Italy play again than Australia.

Good refereeing performance in the game tonight, helped by the lack of passion on either side. In fairness to the ref in the Portugal-Holland game, the fact that the game was so disappointing was also largely down to the players, half of whom went out to kick lumps out of each other, and the other half to dive.

[lyonsee]

Wholeheartedly agree with bandage and steamer about Spain above. Was always confident that they would pull through from 1-0 down against Tunisia and there depth of squad is fantastic. Try compare having Raul, Fabregas and Joaquin on your bench to Jenas, Walcott and Crouch. Saw them warming up together during the Ecuador game and just laughed at how pathetic England are.

Argentina, Spain and Germany are head and shoulders above everyone else so far. Delighted by Spain in particular as they were my tip at the start of the tournament at 14/1 as I recall. Despite the drab match last night between Portugal and Holland, I still think Portugal are next best and are capable of doing it. What they've lacked for so long is a striker imo, that's where they may come up short. Was very surprised after that match that the RTE panel were saying that England would be laughing. Probably more of a reference to the fact that it was expected that they'd have key players missing (although now it seems Figo and Ronaldo will both make it), but even if the aforementioned were missing I think they would've beaten England. Lampard's medocrity has been horribly exposed during the tournament but I'm very surprised at how poor Terry has been - a smashing player imo.

Kinda hope Ghana beat Brazil tomorrow.

[bandage]

lyonsee said:

I'm very surprised at how poor Terry has been - a smashing player imo.

Taking up a pet theme of mine: John Terry. This guy is so far removed from world class it’s incredible although the English media, Alan Hansen and Andy Gray have decided he is. I think the rock mentioned one of his major flaws before, the desire to go attack every ball with his head while vacating the striker/space he’s meant to be marking. This was in evidence on Sunday when he rushed out, flicked the ball up and over himself with his head allowing the guy to go through 1 on 1 with the keeper where he hit the bar. For Sweden’s equaliser from the long throw he comes steaming out, gets caught under the ball, it bounces between himself and Campbell and Larsson nips in to score. Sure he’ll make a lot of headers and blocks too but in the EPL there is a lot of direct/long ball football – much like England are playing in this tournament which suits his game but he has never impressed greatly in the Champions League or in the international game where the football is much more intricate and tactical. He’s fooking slow too!

[therock67]

bandage said:

lyonsee said:

I'm very surprised at how poor Terry has been - a smashing player imo.

Taking up a pet theme of mine: John Terry. This guy is so far removed from world class it’s incredible although the English media, Alan Hansen and Andy Gray have decided he is. I think the rock mentioned one of his major flaws before, the desire to go attack every ball with his head while vacating the striker/space he’s meant to be marking. This was in evidence on Sunday when he rushed out, flicked the ball up and over himself with his head allowing the guy to go through 1 on 1 with the keeper where he hit the bar. For Sweden’s equaliser from the long throw he comes steaming out, gets caught under the ball, it bounces between himself and Campbell and Larsson nips in to score. Sure he’ll make a lot of headers and blocks too but in the EPL there is a lot of direct/long ball football – much like England are playing in this tournament which suits his game but he has never impressed greatly in the Champions League or in the international game where the football is much more intricate and tactical. He’s fooking slow too!

Bang on the money. The guy is very good in the Premiership where most teams (especially when they're struggling for possession against Chelsea) bang a long ball forward. Terry goes and attacks the ball and heads it away. The media love that, even more if he attacks a ball that wasn't his so he clashes heads with someone and he plays on. What they never point out is that it wasn't his ball to go and win in the first place.

Ronaldinho's goal against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge (first time they met) was down to a nothing ball hooked towards the box. Terry left his man, barged into either Gallas or Carvallho and headed the ball straight up into the air. It fell to Ronaldinho who scored.

Likewise this season at Stamford Bridge I saw a Barcelona throw in on their right hand side. Just a simple lob down the line and again Terry couldn't resist. Left Eto'o alone in the middle and sprinted for a header which he promptly missed. It lead to a great chance for Barca.

It reminds me a bit of Celtic's game against Rangers earlier this season. Rangers had two excellent headers of the ball in Kyrgiakos and Andrews to cope with Hartson and Zurawski up front. Everyone in the media was suggesting that the key to the game was to play the ball through on the ground to Zurawski except for Kevin McCarra I think in the Guardian. He said that Celtic should just pump a few long balls to the Rangers centre halves and watch them both compete. Lo and behold we play a nothing ball forward. Hartson stands pretty still and Kyrgiakos and Andrews climb up on eachother to win the header. It breaks for Zurawski unmarked and he slots it away.

Lesson: centre halves who go and attack and win even 90% of the ball do not necessarily equal good defenders. A good centre half should be conscious of marking players and space - not launching himself at every ball.

This doesn't even address Terry's weaknesses when players run at him - just highlights the folly in judging a defender solely by his command of the long ball.

[timofte]

Ronaldo gets the record!

[iamthelaw]

timofte said:

Ronaldo gets the record!

Fantastic. Never thought I'd see Muller's record beaten.

Cafu also beat the Brazilian record for World Cup finals appearances today, his 19th game moving him ahead of Taffarel. If he plays every game till the final he'd move up to 3rd overall, behind Maldini (23) and Matthaus (25). It would also be his 4th consecutive appearance in the World Cup Final. But obviously there's a bit more football to be played before then.

[steamboatsam]

"In my head I'm not a guy who does go down or cheats."

Quote from Henry when questioned about his reaction to the incident with Puyol. He is some hypocritical fook given the way he complained about the Barca boys after the CL final. It says a lot about him that he has to resort to trying to get people sent off in order to compensate for his inability to perform on the big stage. CNUT.

Gutted for Spain, and myself as i backed them to win it outright, but they didn't create any clear cut chances in the entire game. France defended brilliantly, Sagnol in particular, and Viera had a stormer (for the first time since he left Arsenal). Spain's decision to play a high line was dubious considering the pace of Henry, Ribery & Malouda. They obviously knew Henry had yet to learn the offside rule but they forgot about Ribery.

[bandage]

His other quote after the CL final was something like 'I don't dive but maybe I'll have to learn how to go down like a woman.' Absolute hypocrite and he's defending himself today. I would be disgusted only I had Brazil and France at 7/2!

[cully]

admin said:

You bastard I had just copied and pasted that and was about to click post when I saw it here.

i thought we'd discussed the use of language on the site last saturday night. consider yourself smited

[therock67]

I was giving some thought to the goals scored in this World Cup last night and I came to the conclusion that the best goal I've seen thus far was Torres' against Ukraine, not Cambiasso's against Serbia and Montenegro.

I realise everyone has been glowing about the Argentinian goal but I must admit to being a little disappointed when I first saw it. Sure there are plenty of passes and decent possession but not many of those passes are penetrating are particularly incisive. As a comparison Borgetti's goal for Mexico in the last world cup is on the end of a far superior passing move: Mexico worked the ball into both corners before returning to finally create a chance.

The passing in the Argentina goal was decent, but not altogether threatening until the end. You could argue that the brilliance in the goal is the change of pace from a slow, methodical passing move into a couple of flicks across the box and all of a sudden a chance is created. I believe however that a more determined or organised opposition would have pressed the ball a hell of a lot better and Argentina might then have been forced into mistakes. They aren't really challenged for the first fifteen passes or so.

Interestingly Liam Miller (spit) got a smashing goal for Celtic against Lyon which was the culmination of a far superior passing move in my opinion.

In summary, not trying to dismiss the Cambiasso goal as average but I don't think it's as good as people were suggesting:

- the passing is relatively simple and slow
- the finish isn't perfect
- the opposition are uninterested

Thoughts?

[bandage]

I kind of see where you’re coming from but I think you’re being harsh all the same. I think if any of us saw it live we would have been astounded but having been in work and read the online descriptions there may have been a case of building up our expectations to too much of a degree. I think it was an absolutely superb goal – the Sunday times had diagrams of the move there 10 days ago or whatever and some of the interchanges were simply class. Sorin was involved on about 4 or 5 different occasions as part of separate triangles and the move seemed to glide effortlessly along such was the quality of the players involved and how comfortable they are on the ball. Granted there was no semblance of a tackle but that doesn’t impact on the quality of the last few killer touches. That said I saw the Spannish goal live and nearly creamed myself and would rate that goal right up there with Cambiasso’s strike. It had determined defensive play, a quality piece of skill, a give and go, a cushioned nod down and a cracking volley and all done at great speed.

As for Miller’s goal against Lyon – strange to think that’s nearly 3 years ago now. What a waste. What a waster.